From BREATAX at aol.com Thu Jul 1 10:28:21 2004 From: BREATAX at aol.com (BREATAX@aol.com) Date: Thu Jul 1 10:28:23 2004 Subject: [BHC] Email List in Jeopardy Message-ID: <6a.4178960f.2e15a3b5@aol.com> In a message dated 6/30/04 6:33:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dulongj@habitant.org writes: Lunarpages, who hosts our Burton email list, received a complaint from an AOL user that he/she is being spamed John, all this person needs to do is add the (BHC) address to her/his address book. I am having no problems at all. BILL WELLS HAVE A NICE DAY ;>) ANAHEIM, CALIFORNIA breatax@aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/bhc_habitant.org/attachments/20040701/ad777ddd/attachment.htm From JDuncan802 at aol.com Tue Jul 6 06:02:51 2004 From: JDuncan802 at aol.com (JDuncan802@aol.com) Date: Tue Jul 6 08:02:45 2004 Subject: [BHC] DPL Staff Meeting Message-ID: <141.2d9b0a7e.2e1bfcfb@aol.com> There will be a Detroit Public Library staff meeting July 15 to announce the "revised" plan on the implementation of fees for a Detroit library card for non-residents and for access to the Special Collections. "Revised" probably means that there may be a daily fee for one-time users. We HOPE that it will recognize that access to the stellar special collections of the Detroit Public Library that draw people from all over the country should NOT involve a fee at all. These people use the collections on site and are not withdrawing books from the library. When Mayor Kilpatrick wants to encourage tourism to Detroit, should such a discriminatory access fee be put in place? Do we REALLY want to put up a barrier to people being able to research the papers of Councilwoman Mahaffey, former mayor Archer, the Ernie Harwell Collection, the Red Squad files, the microfilms of the Archdiocese churches, and other donated collections? The answer should be a resounding "NO !" Write NOW to Ms. Skowronski, Director of the DPL, and tell her what YOU think. Her email is nskowronski@detroit.lib.mi.us Mary Lou Duncan From cathycompton at earthlink.net Tue Jul 6 08:45:32 2004 From: cathycompton at earthlink.net (Cathy Compton) Date: Tue Jul 6 08:40:09 2004 Subject: [BHC] nonresident fees Message-ID: Dear Ms. Skowronski: Please reconsider the DPL plan to charge access fees to non-residents who wish to use the library special collections. I have used both the Burton collection and visited the rare books collection, but only a few times each year over many years. I would not pay $100, because that could be the year I do not have time to go at all. My small community already pays an annual fee per person for us to have withdrawal privileges at the suburban libraries, but not to simply use these libraries. I agree with those who say that visitors from out of town will find the Detroit Public Library very unfriendly, if it is the only public library to charge for access alone. I belong to several organizations which all oppose these user fees: the Detroit Book Club, the National Society of the DAR, and the Friends of the Burton. In addition, I am an annual donor to the Friends of the DPL. I even grew up in Detroit, attended Cass Tech, and have been a lifetime booster of the DPL. Even my first pre-school story hour was at the Detroit Main Library. It would be a shame to sour that support with non-resident fees. Catherine L. Compton Violist, Detroit Symphony Orchestra From etacke at traverse.net Tue Jul 6 08:59:10 2004 From: etacke at traverse.net (Eleanor Tacke) Date: Tue Jul 6 08:51:52 2004 Subject: [BHC] [Fwd: DELIVERY FAILURE: User nskowronski (nskowronski@detroit.lib.mi.us) Message-ID: <40EACC4E.D1BCC28@traverse.net> Unfortunately, my letter to Ms. Skowronski did not go through. Perhaps you will be able to do so. Thank you. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: DELIVERY FAILURE: User nskowronski (nskowronski@detroit.lib.mi.us) notlisted in Domino Directory Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 11:53:57 -0400 From: Postmaster@detroit.lib.mi.us To: Eleanor Tacke Your message Subject: non resident fees was not delivered to: nskowronski@detroit.lib.mi.us because: User nskowronski (nskowronski@detroit.lib.mi.us) not listed in Domino Directory -------------- next part -------------- Skipped content of type message/delivery-status-------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Eleanor Tacke Subject: non resident fees Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 11:53:57 -0400 Size: 2653 Url: /pipermail/bhc_habitant.org/attachments/20040706/70e60805/nsmail4G.eml From JDuncan802 at aol.com Tue Jul 6 11:21:59 2004 From: JDuncan802 at aol.com (JDuncan802@aol.com) Date: Tue Jul 6 11:22:05 2004 Subject: [BHC] Email to DPL bounced back Message-ID: <84.2d8520dd.2e1c47c7@aol.com> To the list members who emailed Ms. Skowronski and had their email bounce: I just checked the DPL website, updated July 4 ( http://www.detroit.lib.mi.us ) On the left of the home site is a box that says, "Contact Us". By going to that page, one can send an email message(entry form supplied)to any department of the library EXCEPT to the administration or the Library Commission - at least I did not see a link. However, there IS a page (directory) that lists the email addresses of all of the adminstrators. Therefore, if Ms. Skowronski has blocked her email, address your concerns to Deputy DIrector, Dr. Rhea Brown Lawson < rlawson@detroit.lib.mi.us > or Director Public Services Juliet Machie < jmachie@detroit.lib.mi.us > or Director - Main Library Margaret Bruni < mbruni@detroit.lib.mi.us > Surely they would not publish their email addresses on a Detroit Public Library website updated on July 4th and then BLOCK their emails . . . . . or would they? Thank you to those who tried to email Ms. Skowronski. Perhaps her site crashed from emails of those objecting to the access fee! Mary Lou From JDuncan802 at aol.com Wed Jul 7 19:03:42 2004 From: JDuncan802 at aol.com (JDuncan802@aol.com) Date: Wed Jul 7 19:03:33 2004 Subject: [BHC] DPL Non-resident Library Card Fee Message-ID: <7a.5b8f4013.2e1e057e@aol.com> Hi folks, It is a "done deal". The DPL staff meeting for the 15th was canceled (no staff input needed). The following memo was sent at 4:48 p.m. Tuesday to all employees, signed by Rhea Brown Lawson, Deputy Director, Detroit Public Library: "You know by now that, effective August 2, 2004, DPL will be charging non Detroit residents $100 for a Non-resident library card. You will find attached information un the form of frequently asked questions (FAQ) that you should find very useful in understanding more clearly DPL's new non-resident card fee policy and the reasons we are moving in this direction. Please refer to this information to help answer your questions and questions from our customers. To help disseminate this information, the FAQ about the new fee will also be placed on the Library's web site. Please make sure all staff reads and has easy access to this information. Print it out and post it in your work rooms and make sure copies are available at your circulation and reference desks. More information about how we will implement this new policy will be coming your way soon. Thank you in advance for becoming familiar with this information so you can be informed and so you can help to inform our public." The Detroit Public Library's New Non-resident Library Card Fee "By virtue of the Detroit Public Library's longstanding designation as a statewide resource, all Michigan residents have enjoyed free access to the Library's resources and services for many years. Last year, however, the state of michigan completely eliminated the budget line item that supported free access to the Detroit Public Library (DPL) by all residents of michigan. Since 2002, the Detroit Public library has lost over $6 million in state funding. This loss of state funds has adversely affected the Library's ability to continue to support statewide use of its resources. The Detroit Public library is not unlike other public libraries across the country that are faced with shrinking budgets and/or loss of longstanding revenue streams. As a result of this changing environment, public libraries are being challenged by having to reduce staff and other resources while continuing to meet increased demand for information services or charge fees to maintain quality services and programs. A recent survey of public libraries in Michigan and urban public libraries in other states revealed that public libraries are charging fees for non-resident borrowing privileges and extended reference services. Although there is a "grass roots initiative" to identify public funding to stabilize and equalize the support of michigan's public libraries statewide, Christie Pearson Brandau, State Librarian, Library of michigan in Lansing said that ". . . The legislature has not yet supported that concept. Until it does, libraries in this state, including DPL, will have to rely on local funding, minimal state aid, penal fines and non-resident fees." Currently, the primary support for DPL isproperty taxes paid by the residents of Detroit. Detroiters actively support their public library. However, it is important to point out that because millage revenue is consistent with property values, it takes, for example, three mills in Detroit to generate the equivalent of one mill in Southfield, Farmington Hills or Novi. Without state funding and/or newly identified revenue streams, the Detroit Public library cannot continue to function as a free statewide resource. Effective August 2, 2004, the Detroit Public library will charge non-Detroit residents an annual fee of $100 per person or household for a library card. The new library card will be required to borrow materials and to use any of the DPL's special collections. The special collections at DPL including the Burton Historical Collection, the Hackley Collection and the National Automotive History Collection, were partially funded through the State of Michigan's grant to DPL. The attached sheets containing frequently asked questions [FAQ] provide answers to most questions about the new library card fee." The following pages contain 18 questions and answers. I do not have time tonight to post them all. However, question 2 is pertinent: "2. Other libraries only charge for borrowing books. Why is DPL charging for access to the special collections? A borrowing fee will not apply to the special collections because materials housed in these collections do not circulate. In most cases, librarians in DPL's special collections provide in-depth research assistance to the customers who utilize the collections. Our records indicate that 60-75% of the users of DPL's special collections do not live in Detroit. With the loss of state funding, it is not possible to continue to provide the same level of statewide services to these users without a fee of some sort." Other answers given to other questions indicate that the $100 fee will be for two people in a household, both named on the card and will not enable anyone else to use the card. City employees will need to pay for a card if they do not live in the city. Non-residents who work and pay income tax in Detroit will not be entitled to a free card. Non-resident property owners who pay property taxes to Detroit may be entitled to a card. Non-resident card fees will not affect inter-library loan. Michicard will be honored but will not get one into special collections. It is obvious to me that charging non-residents $100 for entering the special collections is a form of retribution for the legislators removing the line item for DPL from the new budget. I doubt that it will coerce the legislators into changing their minds. The people it hurts are those who previously have rallied to support the library by writing to their legislators, who have donated materials, time, money and equipment to the special collections, and who now find the doors slammed in their faces. Mary Lou Duncan Grosse Pointe, MI From Avtrudeau at aol.com Fri Jul 9 14:05:49 2004 From: Avtrudeau at aol.com (Avtrudeau@aol.com) Date: Fri Jul 9 14:05:48 2004 Subject: [BHC] BHC Annual non-resident fee Message-ID: <104.4aef69ef.2e2062ad@aol.com> Dear Ms Skowronski: Just to let you know that, though I have been a frequent visitor to the Burton Historical Collection for many years, and in view of present financial difficulties at the DPL (which are mostly the result of the DPL's own mismangagement) I might be willing to pay a nominal daily user's fee, I will NEVER buy the $100.00 DPL non-resident Library card. Alfred J. Trudeau 28740 Milton Warren MI 48092-2367 (586) 751-4284 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/bhc_habitant.org/attachments/20040709/d5f4958b/attachment.htm From dulongj at habitant.org Fri Jul 9 15:41:49 2004 From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong) Date: Fri Jul 9 15:40:04 2004 Subject: [BHC] Special Message to Burton List AOL Subscribers Message-ID: For those subscribers to the Burton list I have bad news for you. I have to unsubscribe all of you. If you want to keep receiving the messages on this list, then please resubscribe by visiting http://habitant.org/mailman/listinfo/bhc_habitant.org and following the instructions under Subscribing to the BHC. I have to remove these AOL accounts immediately and will be doing so over the next few hours. So please do not resubscribe until about 9:00pm 9 July 2004 or later. If you have a non-AOL account, then please use that email address when you resubscribe. There are some of you AOL people who have told me you do not want to be unsubscribed. I will keep you on for now. Also, many of the people I have known for years use AOL and those who I can identify by their email addresses I will also keep. Sorry for the inconvenience, but if I do not take this radical action, then LunarPages will shut out list down. JP John P. DuLong, Ph.D. Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy 959 Oxford Road Berkley, MI 48072-2011 USA (248) 541-2894 dulongj@habitant.org From afaulkner4847 at wideopenwest.com Fri Jul 9 15:45:57 2004 From: afaulkner4847 at wideopenwest.com (Ann Faulkner) Date: Fri Jul 9 15:46:34 2004 Subject: [BHC] BHC Annual non-resident fee References: <104.4aef69ef.2e2062ad@aol.com> Message-ID: <010801c46606$979c3410$2ff52f45@ann> Dear Ms Skowronski: As a supporter and user of the Burton Historical Collection for many years, I am extremely angry at the DPL's decision to charge a user's fee of $100 to access the collection on-site. I feel that you have betrayed the public trust, and because of the principle involved, I will never consider buying the $100 non-resident card. However, I will be very willing to donate that amount towards challenging the legality of your decision. Ann L. Faulkner Harrison Twp. MI -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/bhc_habitant.org/attachments/20040709/35003a44/attachment.htm From dulongj at habitant.org Fri Jul 9 15:59:52 2004 From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong) Date: Fri Jul 9 15:57:58 2004 Subject: [BHC] Our Burton List Has Suffered Message-ID: If you are reading this, then you have a non-AOL account or you have an AOL account and I recall who you are. All the other AOL accounts have been removed from our Burton list. I had to unsubscribe 58 accounts. This wipes out the gains we made over the last few weeks in membership. Please encourage people to re-subscribe with non-AOL accounts if they have them, but with AOL if that is all they have. I am still going through all my mail and email and I hope to post something of substance later tonight or tomorrow morning. I want to thank all of you for keeping things going while I was on vacation. Your dedicate is appreciated. I especially want to thank Mary Lou, she is a real trooper. JP John P. DuLong, Ph.D. Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy 959 Oxford Road Berkley, MI 48072-2011 USA (248) 541-2894 dulongj@habitant.org From dulongj at habitant.org Fri Jul 9 16:20:12 2004 From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong) Date: Fri Jul 9 16:18:18 2004 Subject: [BHC] Non-Resident Library Card Fee FAQ Message-ID: Hello Folks, Here is the full FAQ about the fee. I am not going to tear the logic about now, but just keep in mind that this fee was imposed without consulting with any of the key players. The fact that the administration cancelled the meeting with the staff that was set for 15 July 2004 speaks volumes. I agree with Mary Lou that it is punitive and meant to send a message to Lansing. This is the wrong way to communicate with Lansing and the donors who live in the suburbs. They will never raise anything close to the $6 million lost in state funding by imposing this fee. Have they never heard of a cost/benefit analysis? Also, I have asked around and have yet to find any public library, in Michigan or elsewhere, that charges a non-resident access fee. Lots of them charge for borrowing and $100 is not unreasonable for this privilege. However, none of them charge for simply using a special collection. Please, if any of you know of an exception to this rule, then please let me and the group know. By the way, while on vacation, I visited Allen County Public Library in Fort Wayne, Indiana. Best genealogy collection and service this side of the Mississippi. How much was I charged to use it? Zero. How much money did I spend in gas, food, lodging, etc. while visiting Fort Wayne? I would guess over $300 and this was a short visit. Of course, to be fair, I should also point out that the state of Indiana does a better job supporting libraries than does the state of Michigan. Nevertheless, as a non-Hoosier, I pay no taxes in the state at all. JP ********** THE DETROIT PUBLIC LIBRARY?S NEW NON-RESIDENT LIBRARY CARD FEE By virtue of the Detroit Public Library?s longstanding designation as a statewide resource, all Michigan residents have enjoyed free access to the Library?s resources and services for many years. Last year, however, the state of Michigan completely eliminated the budget line item that supported free access to the Detroit Public Library (DPL) by all residents of Michigan. Since 2002, the Detroit Public Library has lost over $6 million in state funding. This loss of state funds has adversely affected the Library's ability to continue to support statewide use of its resources. The Detroit Public Library is not unlike other public libraries across the country that are faced with shrinking budgets and/or loss of longstanding revenue streams. As a result of this changing environment, public libraries are being challenged by having to reduce staff and other resources while continuing to meet increased demand for information services. Many libraries have had no choice but to significantly decrease current services or charge fees to maintain quality services and programs. A recent survey of public libraries in Michigan and urban public libraries in other states revealed that public libraries are charging fees for non-resident borrowing privileges and extended reference services. Although there is a ?grass roots initiative? to identify public funding to stabilize and equalize the support of Michigan?s public libraries statewide, Christie Pearson Brandau, State Librarian, Library of Michigan in Lansing said that ? The legislature has not yet supported that concept. Until it does, libraries in this state, including DPL, will have to rely on local funding, minimal state aid, penal fines and non-resident fees.? Currently, the primary support for DPL is property taxes paid by the residents of Detroit. Detroiters actively support their public library. However, it is important to point out that because millage revenue is consistent with property values, it takes, for example, three mills in Detroit to generate the equivalent of one mill in Southfield, Farmington Hills or Novi. Without state funding and/or newly identified revenue streams, the Detroit Public Library cannot continue to function as a free statewide resource. Effective August 2, 2004, the Detroit Public Library will charge non-Detroit residents an annual fee of $100 per person or household for a library card. The new library card will be required to borrow materials and to use any of DPL?s special collections. The special collections at DPL including the Burton Historical Collection, the Hackley Collection and the National Automotive History Collection, were partially funded through the State of Michigan?s grant to DPL. The attached sheets containing frequently asked questions [FAQ] provide answers to most questions about the new library card fee. Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) on Non-Resident Library Card Fee 1. Why a $100 non-resident fee? The $100 price point is on average with what other libraries around the state charge for a non-resident library card. The $100 fee is also significantly lower than what some other public libraries in Michigan charge for non-resident library cards. Ann Arbor, for example, charges $150 a year per household. It is also important to note that charging a non-resident library card fee is not new to DPL. In fact, DPL presently charges non-Michigan residents $40 for a library card. 2. Other libraries only charge for borrowing books. Why is DPL charging for access to the special collections? A borrowing fee will not apply to the special collections because materials housed in these collections do not circulate. In most cases, librarians in DPL?s special collections provide in-depth research assistance to the customers who utilize the collections. Our records indicate that 60 ? 75% of the users of DPL?s special collections do not live in Detroit. With the loss of state funding, it is not possible to continue to provide the same level of statewide services to these users without a fee of some sort. 3. Which special collections will require a library card for access? Three DPL special collections will require a library card for access. They are: Burton Historical Collection E. Azalia Hackley Collection National Automotive History Collection 4. Are any provisions being made for members of the Friends of DPL? The Friends of DPL will offer a free library card to members who join or renew at $150 or above. The annual membership includes full borrowing privileges and use of the special collections, invitations to special activities and events, discounts to programs and a newsletter with updates on library news and special programs. 5. How will non-resident household cards be handled? A family who elects to purchase a non-resident household card may list a spouse or family member on their card, provided they have the same verifiable address. Only two persons can be listed on a household card. DPL will only issue one card to a household. Persons not listed on a library card will not be authorized to use the card. Children under 12, who do not live in or go to school in Detroit, can use the special collections without charge, if accompanied by an adult with a DPL library card. 6. What about teachers in Detroit Public Schools, who do not live in Detroit? DPL will continue to provide outreach and traditional library services to schools in Detroit. At a school?s request, DPL will issue a library card to the school for teachers to check out resource materials. Teachers who desire a personal library card may purchase a non-resident library card. 7. What about students in Detroit schools, who do not live in Detroit? Persons, who are non-residents, but are enrolled in any school [including public and private, K thru 12 and post secondary] that is located within the city of Detroit, may obtain a free library card. Students who apply for a library card must present a current, valid school ID or proof of current enrollment and attendance in a Detroit school. A DPL library card allows students to borrow materials from Detroit Public Library?s Main Library, neighborhood branches, or bookmobile and full use of the Library?s resources including computers and special collections. 8. Will I need a library card to enter a Detroit Public Library building? No, you will not need a library card to enter a DPL library building. And, you do not need a DPL library card to access any of DPL?s general services, materials and programs. You will need a DPL library card, however, if you desire to check out materials, use computers, or use DPL?s special collections. 9. Why implement a non-resident fee now right before the millage election? It was an administrative budget decision to implement the new fee during the first quarter of DPL?s 2004-2005 fiscal year the first full year that DPL does not benefit from state support. 10. Do I need a library card to use the Internet? Yes, a library card is required to use the Internet at DPL. However, occasional exceptions are made for out of state visitors who may only need to check their email. 11. Can I get a free library card if I work in Detroit and pay Detroit income taxes? No. Funding for DPL is generated from Detroit property taxes, not from City of Detroit income taxes. 12. What if I work for the City of Detroit? Employees of the City of Detroit who do not live in Detroit will need a non-resident library card to check out materials for personal use. DPL is an independent municipal organization and not a city department. 13. What about use of the Municipal Reference Library (MRL)? Employees of the City of Detroit can continue to use the Municipal Reference Library at no cost. The Municipal Reference Library is partially funded by the Detroit City Council. 14. What about businesses in Detroit that pay millage taxes? Any Detroit company may apply for a company card to borrow materials from the Main Library. Non-Detroit companies may apply for a non-resident company card to borrow materials from the Main Library for an annual fee of $100. Requests must be submitted on company letterhead to: Detroit Public Library, Circulation Department 5201 Woodward Avenue, Detroit, MI 48202 15. Are there any provisions for residents of Highland Park? The Detroit Public Library is willing to work with the City of Highland Park to reinstate their closed library. Residents of Highland Park, however, will be required to purchase a non-resident card to borrow DPL materials and/or use the special collections. 16. Will the non-resident card fee affect inter-library loan (materials requested by other libraries for short-term borrowing by their library users)? No. Inter library loan will NOT be affected by the non-resident card fee. 17. Will DPL continue to honor Michicard (a reciprocal borrowing program among Michigan libraries that allows Michicard cardholders to borrow materials from participating libraries outside of their library community)? Yes. DPL has been a Michicard library for many years. Michicard holders will still be able to borrow DPL materials. Michicard privileges, however, do not include access to the DPL?s special collections. To access DPL special collections, a non-resident will have to have a DPL non-resident card. 18. How will non-resident group tours be handled? DPL will continue to conduct group tours at no charge. ********* John P. DuLong, Ph.D. Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy 959 Oxford Road Berkley, MI 48072-2011 USA (248) 541-2894 dulongj@habitant.org From Avtrudeau at aol.com Fri Jul 9 18:59:43 2004 From: Avtrudeau at aol.com (Avtrudeau@aol.com) Date: Fri Jul 9 18:59:31 2004 Subject: [BHC] Fwd: BHC Annual non-resident fee Message-ID: <156.396ea120.2e20a78f@aol.com> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Avtrudeau@aol.com Subject: BHC Annual non-resident fee Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:05:49 EDT Size: 2191 Url: /pipermail/bhc_habitant.org/attachments/20040709/f22239be/attachment.eml From dulongj at habitant.org Sat Jul 10 06:59:31 2004 From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong) Date: Sat Jul 10 06:57:59 2004 Subject: [BHC] Plan Endorsed and Need More Time Message-ID: Folks, Sorry to do this, keep in mind I am still on vacation and I have training all next week, but I need more time before submitting our Plan of Action. I returned with about eight inches of new data to assimilate from my research trip and I have to do this while it is fresh on my mind. I only heard from four people who objected to the plan and one who did not endorse it but did give me some good practical political advice. The objections were that this donation boycott would do more harm than good, that there has to be a better way to protest, and that it is falling into the plan of the commissioners to kill off the special collections. I value these objections, but I think we are now at the point where we have very little choice but a donation boycott since the commissioners are not accountable to anyone. What surprised me was how enthusiastic you folks are about joining in on a donation boycott. I was especially surprised when I heard from several of you who I consider moderates on these issues who strongly endorsed the idea. Despite the majority of you wanting to follow the Plan of Action, I would still like to proceed cautiously. Besides, I will not have time to make the necessary corrections to the Plan of Action until at least next weekend. It has been suggested that I boil the plan down to ten points and there are some grievous grammar issues I must fix. I really do NOT want to go through with this Plan of Action. I would prefer that we negotiate some sort of compromise with the library administration. As I suggested in previous emails, when I do send in the Plan of Action I will include a letter offering to negotiate a compromise and I will call Ms. Skowronski and see if we can set up a meeting. If she will not meet with me, then perhaps she will meet with a delegation from the affected societies and patrons. However, if this move falls through, then I think we should pursue our Plan of Action with vigor. I should explain that I already have a list of all the major donors to the library. Also, thanks to a previous FOIA request, I have a list of some of the biggest donors with their addresses and telephone numbers. This list was buried in a pile of unrelated documents I had requested. It is a little dated and I will need help in correcting the addresses. But let us hope it does not come to this. I read over the FAQ on the fee more closely. What a disappointing document. It did answer some of our questions, but in the negative. And what is glaringly omitted is any idea that there would be a sliding scale fee based on amount of usage. There is simply no way that a person who uses the Burton once or twice a year is going to pay $100. And the first time out of state visitor will be shocked to learn they have to pay $100. I had hoped that over the last week while I was gone that the library administration would back down a little. They have not. They have at least another week to reconsider things. Again, please accept my apology for not working faster on this, but I have to take care of some personal things first (including cutting my grass!). JP John P. DuLong, Ph.D. Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy 959 Oxford Road Berkley, MI 48072-2011 USA (248) 541-2894 dulongj@habitant.org From willyb97 at comcast.net Sat Jul 10 17:16:09 2004 From: willyb97 at comcast.net (Bill & Peggy Youngs) Date: Sat Jul 10 17:18:14 2004 Subject: Re; [BHC] Fwd: BHC Annual non-resident fee References: <156.396ea120.2e20a78f@aol.com> Message-ID: <002c01c466dc$445b7820$6500a8c0@hp> Hi all, I was at the DPL today, using the Burton Collection. Several members of the DSGR were there (Detroit Society for Genealogical Research) and they feel the same way about the fee as we all do. They are adamant about not paying the fee. As well, the feeling from the librarians is that it is a very bad move on the part of the library. Some feel that this will lead to the eventual closing of not only the special collections but the library itself. The library seems to not have even considered looking for private money (grants) to help cover expenses. Nearly everyone using the Burton today was a non-Detroiter. The mood was rather grim. I think it would be wise to coordinate whatever plan of attack is chosen with the other groups who use the Burton, and this was the feeling I got from others there today as well. Peggy Young -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/bhc_habitant.org/attachments/20040710/ef2fb4f9/attachment.htm From jgorentz at iserv.net Sun Jul 11 20:03:36 2004 From: jgorentz at iserv.net (John Gorentz) Date: Sun Jul 11 20:02:14 2004 Subject: [BHC] Non-Resident Library Card Fee FAQ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.2.20040711222713.0185a380@mail.iserv.net> John, Thanks for posting that information. One item that isn't covered is the time period. I hesitate even to bring it up, for fear that the DPL will handle it so as to inflict maximum pain, but here goes anyway. If I buy a card in February 2005, will that cover the period Feb2005-January2006? Or will it instead be retroactive to cover the library's current fiscal year? I am making arrangements to do as much work as I can before the fee goes into effect. But I doubt I can boycott the fee forever. Eventually I'll need to pony up. If you folks institute some kind of organized boycott, I'll probably cooperate to whatever reasonable extent I can just for the sake of being cooperative with a bunch of good people in a good cause, but I can't promise I can avoid it forever. I try to avoid paying ancestry.com's fees, too, but recently I signed up for a year's worth for $80. I'll try to get as much done within the year, and then discontinue. (I'm coming to dislike ancestry.com's way of doing business, but that's another matter.) I'll probably do something similar with the DPL fees -- arrange to cram as much as I can within a year's time, when I absolutely need to. One thing I will not do is join in a letter-writing campaign to get the legislature to reinstitute its support. I think it *ought* to do that, and I can make good arguments why it ought to, but I have a conflict of interest. I am a beneficiary of that kind of support. I don't think it's right for me to lobby to have my neighbors around the state who do not use the library pay to use something that I benefit from a lot more directly than they do. I do write letters to encourage the legislature to act on matters on which I am a reasonably disinterested party, but this is not one of those. It's all rather disheartening. I am willing to pay the fee. Well, let's say instead that I will pay the fee grudgingly (and when my wife lets me). But I don't see it doing the library or the collection any good. As others have pointed out, I don't see that it will come anywhere near to making up for the money that used to be provided by the legislature, and I am fearful that this policy will just run the collection into the ground. I suppose there are other archives that would be glad to expand and pick up the pieces someday, but I'd rather see the Burton Collection thrive just where it is. It's somewhat idiosyncratic in the way it's run, and I like having that kind of diversity in the state. But I don't think it's appropriate for me to lobby to get my neighbors to pay for something that I benefit from so much more directly than they do. It's a sad state of affairs. John Gorentz Battle Creek, MI From ehr09 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 07:09:39 2004 From: ehr09 at yahoo.com (M Ehr) Date: Mon Jul 12 07:09:49 2004 Subject: [BHC] Fee use? Message-ID: <20040712140939.48727.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com> Do we have any indication yet of how the non-resident fees will be allocated within the DPL's budget? As I stated a couple of weeks ago, I would be less opposed to paying a fee if I knew that those funds were going directly to support the Burton. I think it's extremely hypocritical of the DPL to put those funds into the general budget after they've stated that we non-residents are putting a huge burden on the staff and budget by using the special collections. I will (almost) gladly pay the fee if it means that I will have better resources, equipment, and assistance available to me in the Burton. But I have seen no indication yet that my $100 will go to support the resources that I actually use. If efforts to get the user fee rescinded are ultimately unsuccessful, perhaps we should consider lobbying for specific allocation of our user fees to support the special collections only. At least then we'd be more likely to gain some direct benefit from this punitive fee. Meg Ehr Royal Oak, MI __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From ehr09 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 07:31:14 2004 From: ehr09 at yahoo.com (M Ehr) Date: Mon Jul 12 07:31:15 2004 Subject: [BHC] Thoughts on Burton resources Message-ID: <20040712143114.24040.qmail@web21206.mail.yahoo.com> Like many folks, I am trying to use the Burton's resources as much and as efficiently as possible before the end of the month. Although the Burton is certainly more convenient than other sources, and microfilm lending fees will no doubt add up quickly once I have to resort to using the FHC, I'd like to focus my efforts on the Burton's unique or rare holdings instead of wasting much time on resources that are readily available in other collections. Besides the Archdiocesan records and photo collections, what else does the Burton hold that would be difficult or impossible to obtain through other sources? Meg Ehr Royal Oak, MI __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jgorentz at iserv.net Mon Jul 12 09:14:48 2004 From: jgorentz at iserv.net (John Gorentz) Date: Mon Jul 12 09:14:52 2004 Subject: [BHC] Thoughts on Burton resources In-Reply-To: <20040712143114.24040.qmail@web21206.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040712143114.24040.qmail@web21206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1107.192.231.113.251.1089648888.squirrel@webmail.iserv.net> M Ehr said: > Besides the Archdiocesan records and photo > collections, what else does the Burton hold that would > be difficult or impossible to obtain through other > sources? The manuscript collections. Those are one-of-a-kind, irreplaceable items. That's what I go to the Burton for. (Strictly speaking, I'm doing history research, not genealogy, but I often hang out where genealogists do and I stick my nose into other peoples' genealogies.) Some of the best things I've found have been at the Burton. John Gorentz From mcmahonrl at chartermi.net Mon Jul 12 09:35:59 2004 From: mcmahonrl at chartermi.net (Ruth McMahon) Date: Mon Jul 12 09:36:13 2004 Subject: [BHC] Burton Staff & Volunteers Message-ID: <40F2BDEF.3080509@chartermi.net> Hello everyone, In the frequently asked questions it states "In most cases, librarians in DPL's special collections provide in-depth research assistance to the customers who utilize the collections" Burton Staff do not have time to give in-depth research assistance. We are lucky if the clerical assistant on A or B level locates the book or manuscript that we request. Upon occasion, the staff will retrieve the requested book/manuscript if the CA can't locate it. The staff is very good at answering questions and helping us locate books in the reading room. The most in-depth research assistance I've seen is when Anna helps a patron change surnames into soundex code and fill out call slips for the correct censuses or other microfilm collections and then make copies for patrons on the new microfilm printer. I am a Burton volunteer and a suburbanite. I'm indexing and processing a manuscript collection. I've been inactive for the first half of 2004 because of back surgery but recently returned to my project, working 3 hrs. a week. Do suburban volunteers now have to pay the $100 fee to volunteer? I already pay to park. Ruth McMahon Northville From YankeeDD at twmi.rr.com Mon Jul 12 10:11:22 2004 From: YankeeDD at twmi.rr.com (Joyce Stevens) Date: Mon Jul 12 10:11:28 2004 Subject: [BHC] lIBRARY REPSOND? In-Reply-To: <40F2BDEF.3080509@chartermi.net> Message-ID: it would be nice, if maybe not politically expedient, for the decision makers to respond to this list. For many reasons, I do not subscribe to a metropolitan daily, so souls appreciate feedback. People would be safe, can't throw stones online, only words, and that's what I thought libraries are about. Joyce in Livonia -----Original Message----- From: BHC-bounces@habitant.org [mailto:BHC-bounces@habitant.org]On Behalf Of Ruth McMahon Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 12:36 PM To: bhc@habitant.org Subject: [BHC] Burton Staff & Volunteers Burton Historical Collection List _______________________________________________ Hello everyone, In the frequently asked questions it states "In most cases, librarians in DPL's special collections provide in-depth research assistance to the customers who utilize the collections" Burton Staff do not have time to give in-depth research assistance. We are lucky if the clerical assistant on A or B level locates the book or manuscript that we request. Upon occasion, the staff will retrieve the requested book/manuscript if the CA can't locate it. The staff is very good at answering questions and helping us locate books in the reading room. The most in-depth research assistance I've seen is when Anna helps a patron change surnames into soundex code and fill out call slips for the correct censuses or other microfilm collections and then make copies for patrons on the new microfilm printer. I am a Burton volunteer and a suburbanite. I'm indexing and processing a manuscript collection. I've been inactive for the first half of 2004 because of back surgery but recently returned to my project, working 3 hrs. a week. Do suburban volunteers now have to pay the $100 fee to volunteer? I already pay to park. Ruth McMahon Northville _______________________________________________ BHC mailing list BHC@habitant.org http://habitant.org/mailman/listinfo/bhc_habitant.org From YankeeDD at twmi.rr.com Mon Jul 12 11:53:53 2004 From: YankeeDD at twmi.rr.com (Joyce Stevens) Date: Mon Jul 12 11:53:56 2004 Subject: [BHC] lIBRARY REPSOND? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Excuse the typo, souls should have been WOULD -----Original Message----- From: BHC-bounces@habitant.org [mailto:BHC-bounces@habitant.org]On Behalf Of Joyce Stevens Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 1:11 PM To: Ruth McMahon; bhc@habitant.org Subject: [BHC] lIBRARY REPSOND? Burton Historical Collection List _______________________________________________ it would be nice, if maybe not politically expedient, for the decision makers to respond to this list. For many reasons, I do not subscribe to a metropolitan daily, so souls appreciate feedback. People would be safe, can't throw stones online, only words, and that's what I thought libraries are about. Joyce in Livonia -----Original Message----- From: BHC-bounces@habitant.org [mailto:BHC-bounces@habitant.org]On Behalf Of Ruth McMahon Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 12:36 PM To: bhc@habitant.org Subject: [BHC] Burton Staff & Volunteers Burton Historical Collection List _______________________________________________ Hello everyone, In the frequently asked questions it states "In most cases, librarians in DPL's special collections provide in-depth research assistance to the customers who utilize the collections" Burton Staff do not have time to give in-depth research assistance. We are lucky if the clerical assistant on A or B level locates the book or manuscript that we request. Upon occasion, the staff will retrieve the requested book/manuscript if the CA can't locate it. The staff is very good at answering questions and helping us locate books in the reading room. The most in-depth research assistance I've seen is when Anna helps a patron change surnames into soundex code and fill out call slips for the correct censuses or other microfilm collections and then make copies for patrons on the new microfilm printer. I am a Burton volunteer and a suburbanite. I'm indexing and processing a manuscript collection. I've been inactive for the first half of 2004 because of back surgery but recently returned to my project, working 3 hrs. a week. Do suburban volunteers now have to pay the $100 fee to volunteer? I already pay to park. Ruth McMahon Northville _______________________________________________ BHC mailing list BHC@habitant.org http://habitant.org/mailman/listinfo/bhc_habitant.org _______________________________________________ BHC mailing list BHC@habitant.org http://habitant.org/mailman/listinfo/bhc_habitant.org From JDuncan802 at aol.com Thu Jul 15 19:44:41 2004 From: JDuncan802 at aol.com (JDuncan802@aol.com) Date: Thu Jul 15 19:44:52 2004 Subject: [BHC] Call Burton? Pay for phone calls, fax and emails Message-ID: <51.41270bc8.2e289b19@aol.com> Hi folks, Well, that loophole has just been closed! The edict went to Burton staff today that after August 2 there is to be a charge for answering inquiries from the public by phone, fax or email. No $100 card, no answers! Of course, the details of how to determine the residency of a caller have not been worked out, or how someone who calls long distance from Germany (and the answer found for him in two minutes), as happened yesterday, will be aided in getting a $100 card before having his query answered. Details, details. I understand the library is still issuing the old cards in the hallway. How would you feel if you bought a $40 card and found it was only good for two weeks? No one has SEEN the new card, and no one seems to know how it will be determined if one is a Detroit resident. Do the "street people" who visit the library have proof of residency? Burton IS busy, as the word spreads that those who live across Eight Mile are "persona non grata" after August 2. It will be interesting to see if the libr ary changes its "Mission Statement". That states that "The Mission of the Detroit Public Library is to support and enhance the quality of life in the city of Detroit and the state of Michigan by providing library and information services that meet the cultural, professional, educational and recreational needs of our customers." Mary Lou Duncan Mary Lou Duncan From dulongj at habitant.org Thu Jul 15 20:12:21 2004 From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong) Date: Thu Jul 15 20:10:37 2004 Subject: [BHC] Call Burton? Pay for phone calls, fax and emails In-Reply-To: <51.41270bc8.2e289b19@aol.com> Message-ID: Thanks Mary Lou for updating us. My training is nearly done. This weekend I plan on using the Burton on Saturday to do some research for a friend of mine. I will then go home and catch up on all the emails I have been receiving from you folks. By Sunday I hope to have a letter to Ms. Skorwonski prepared for your review and the final draft of our plan of action. Over the next few weeks we are going to be expanding a lot of energy. Too bad the library administration did not try working with us to lobby in Lansing instead of antagonizing us. I would much rather lobby for state funding than oppose this punitive usage fee. Please everyone, enjoy the Burton while we can. It is getting the most use it has received in years in just a few short weeks! Take care, JP John P. DuLong, Ph.D. Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy 959 Oxford Road Berkley, MI 48072-2011 USA (248) 541-2894 dulongj@habitant.org From Pibbotso at aol.com Fri Jul 16 12:11:51 2004 From: Pibbotso at aol.com (Pibbotso@aol.com) Date: Fri Jul 16 12:11:52 2004 Subject: [BHC] Opinion from State Attorney General Message-ID: <128.46645cc8.2e298277@aol.com> Dear Listers: One of the DPL staffers requested that I pass this on as there are only 10 more days until the $100 fee will be levied to access the Burton Historical Collection in the DPL.? The person suggested that letters, phone calls or e-mail be sent to the Attorney General of Michigan, Mike Cox, concerning this fee being excessive and, in effect, denying public access to a public library.? The address is: G. Mennen Williams Building, 7th Floor 525 W. Ottawa St. P.O. Box 30212 Lansing, MI 48909 Main Number (517) 373-1110 Consumer Protection (517) 373-1140 Toll Free? (877) 765-8388 Charitable Trust (517) 373-1152 Franchise Registration (517) 373-7117 Facsimile (517) 373-3042 E-mail : miag@michigan.gov My own personal opinion is that no fees should be charged nonresidents to access any of the special collections in the DPL. I can see charging fees for e-mail or mail research requests, but $100 is ridiculous. Patricia Ibbotson Editor, The Detroit Society for Genealogical Research Magazine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/bhc_habitant.org/attachments/20040716/a9fe85dc/attachment.htm From dulongj at habitant.org Fri Jul 16 13:47:52 2004 From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong) Date: Fri Jul 16 13:46:10 2004 Subject: [BHC] Asking for the Attorney General's Opinion Message-ID: Hello Folks, Some of you have made contact with me and asked if we should be writing to Mr. Michael Cox, the state attorney general, about the constitutionality of the usage fee. I called his office today and verified that what I thought was the case is true, that is, a state senator or representative has to as the attorney general for his legal opinion on an issue. Therefore, writing to Mr. Cox at this point would not help. A few weeks ago I wrote to state Senator Shirley Johnson, but have received no response. Several people suggested that I contact state Representative Andy Mainer, who is more responsive. With that in mind I sent his office the following email. Next week I will call. If he does not take on this task with enthusiasm, then I will need those of you who live in his Oakland County district to write letters and emails to him. But please hold off on doing this for now. We do not want to become pests unless it is absolutely necessary. Regards, JP -----Original Message----- From: John P. DuLong [mailto:dulongj@habitant.org] Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 4:33 PM To: andymeisner@house.mi.gov Subject: Detroit Public Library Usage Fee and the Michigan Constitution Dear Mr. Meisner, I am writing to you on behalf of the Advocates for the Burton Historical Collection. We are a group of patrons trying to protect and preserve this wonderful collection of historical materials. As you may already know, the Burton Historical Collection is one of the top ten genealogical collections in the nation and is heavily used by citizens of Michigan and surrounding states and provinces. Recently, the Detroit Library Commission decided to impose a usage fee for non-Detroit residents starting on 1 August 2004. After that date, anyone living outside of Detroit will have to pay $100 to access the public libraries special collections, including the Burton Historical Collection. Many of the people affected by this fee are, like myself, your constituents. We believe this is a move to punish non-Detroiters for the state legislator removing funding for the Detroit Public Library. Besides being a terrible public relations decision, and one that will not generate significant funds for the library, we believe that imposing a fee to use a public library goes against the constitution of the state of Michigan. We would like you to approach Mr. Michael Cox, the Attorney General of Michigan, and ask him for his legal opinion if the imposition of a usage fee is allowed by the terms of the Michigan State Constitution. In the past, the former Attorney General, Frank J. Kelley, published two opinions regarding libraries and the issue of access and fees. To read these opinions please point your browsers to: http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/1980s/op05739.htm http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/1980s/op06188.htm In essence, Opinion 5739 says that ?All residents of the State of Michigan are entitled to use the public libraries of this state subject to reasonable regulations of the library.? The relevant part of the 1963 constitution, art. 8, sec. 9, states: ?The legislature shall provide by law for the establishment and support of public libraries which shall be available to all residents of the state under regulations adopted by the governing bodies thereof.? This opinion makes it clear that you can use a public library anywhere in the state and would appear to rule out a usage fee. However, this opinion was done in 1980 and the next ruling impacts it. Opinion 6188 was done in 1983 and says that a borrowing fee, if not excessive, is a reasonable regulation. If it is excessive, then it constitutes a tax and is illegal. It says nothing about a usage fee, particularly a usage fee for special collections. We do not oppose a borrowing fee, just the fee for using the books and other materials in the library. We need to know from Mr. Cox if a usage fee, which would appear to totally contradict the idea of an entitlement to use public libraries, is constitutional. Would you please contact Mr. Cox and ask him for his opinion on this issue. I will call your office next week to discuss this issue with you and/or your staff. Anything you can do to help determine the constitutionality of a usage fee would be appreciated. JP John P. DuLong, Ph.D. Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy 959 Oxford Road Berkley, MI 48072-2011 USA (248) 541-2894 dulongj@habitant.org From dulongj at habitant.org Fri Jul 16 13:47:52 2004 From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong) Date: Fri Jul 16 13:46:11 2004 Subject: [BHC] Here is a Good Approach on the Fees Issue Message-ID: Folks, I found the following message posted on the Genealogy Blog at http://genealogyblog.com/index.php?m=20040714. I think this is a good idea, especially for those of you who spend your money in Detroit when you come to use the Burton Historical Collection. Does anyone know who we can write to at the Detroit Chamber of Commerce? JP ********* July 10, 2004 Dear family historians and genealogists, As my friends, you will probably be surprised that I have become such an activist. I just feel compelled to write this letter in memory of my dear friend Haroldyne Zook, who passed away on June 25, 2004 in Anderson, Indiana. When she wasn?t selflessly compiling 22 volumes of data to assist those searching for Indiana ancestors, she researched her own ancestors in Michigan. Every year or so, she?d travel to Detroit to use the Burton Collection in the public library. She examined the genealogical materials there extensively for a couple of days. Then she?d return home to Indiana, excited about her finds. Such recreation will be out of the question for many starting August 1, 2004, as state funding cuts and library mismanagement have resulted in exorbitant new library fees. Nonresidents of Detroit will have to pay $100 per year for a library card to use the Clarence Monroe Burton Historical Collection, the E. Azalia Hackley Music and Performing Arts Collection, or the National Automotive Collection. This is a serious blow to those who occasionally use the Burton Collection for research of Detroit and the Great Lakes area in general. Detroit Public Library will be charging just to view the materials in the collection. If it happens here in southeastern Michigan, it can happen in a library you need to use elsewhere. We can?t just accept this! Please take the time to help. I am hoping that many messages in protest will force a change in this new policy. Don?t complain to the people who work in the genealogy room. They read about this in the newspaper, and were not consulted regarding the decision. They wish for you to protest to the Director of the Detroit Public Library, Nancy Skowronski (nskowro@detroit.lib.mi.us). It may be best to identify yourself, atleast by your state of residence, in any message you send. I would also suggest writing a message to the president of the city council (or any of the other council members you wish to contact). Her name is Maryann Mahaffey (mahaffeym@mahaffey.ci.detroit.mi.us). It might be a good idea to mention the loss of revenue from out-of-state guests visiting the city. Another thing I?d like for you to do is forward this message immediately, as cleanly as possible, to any other genealogists you know. Please make an exception of professional genealogists who reside in Detroit. In my opinion, they are the only ones who would benefit from such a rule change. I must close now. I don?t have much time left to beat the August 1st deadline and neither do you. I?m going to write to the mayor and governor now. Should you wish to do the same, look for their addresses below. Thank you for honoring Haroldyne by helping other genealogists. Sincerely, Patricia Hahn Beverly Hills, Michigan Snail mail addresses: Governor Jennifer Granholm Cadillac Place, Suite 14-150 3022 East Grand Boulevard Detroit, Michigan 48202 Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick Suite 1126 Coleman A. Young Municipal Center 2 Woodward Avenue Detroit, Michigan 48226 E-mail addresses for city council members are listed at the City of Detroit website (http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us). ********* John P. DuLong, Ph.D. Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy 959 Oxford Road Berkley, MI 48072-2011 (248) 541-2894 http://habitant.org From ehr09 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 14:11:36 2004 From: ehr09 at yahoo.com (M Ehr) Date: Fri Jul 16 14:11:31 2004 Subject: [BHC] Alternatives not explored? Message-ID: <20040716211136.61780.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com> Does anyone know whether DPL approached any of the local genealogical/historical/other societies or individual users (to my knowledge, at least) to discuss alternative approaches to reducing the financial burden on DPL without placing it on non-resident users? I'm guessing that the answer is no, and if that's true, it's a shame. I have a hard time believing DPL's assertion in the FAQ that "In most cases, librarians in DPL’s special collections provide in-depth research assistance to the customers who utilize the collections." In my experience, there have really been only two reasons why I've needed to consult staffers, other than to have materials retrieved from the closed stacks. Either I've been unfamiliar with what the Burton holds and how to access it (most frequently in the microfilm room), or I've found something in the catalog that I can't find on the shelf. While I have overheard others asking for assistance who clearly just don't know where to start exploring their history, that has been once or twice in all the times I've visited the Burton. I've not seen many instances in which librarians are "provid[ing] in-depth research assistance" to anyone. It seems to me that most scenarios in which researchers ask for help actually require only very basic levels of assistance. A trained volunteer (or, for that matter, a well-written basic research guide or series of guides) could handle probably 75% of the requests for assistance, such as providing an overview of the collections, directing people to specific resources, etc. Volunteers could also assist with lookups and other basic research requests. This would allow the librarians to concentrate on the 25% (or less) of questions that require more in-depth knowledge and skills. I, for one, would have been more than happy to donate my time and knowledge to assist others in using the collections, at no cost to DPL. Of course, considering that in the redesign of the DPL website, almost all of the useful information about the Burton's genealogical holdings was deleted (and I didn't get a very good explanation when I emailed DPL about that), it doesn't seem that DPL is actually very interested in helping people make good use of the Burton. And again, I find it ridiculous that DPL contends that they have to charge a fee to use the special collections because we non-residents are apparently such a drain on their resources, yet makes no provision for those fees to actually be reserved for the special collections. The more we learn about this policy, the less logical sense it makes. Meg Ehr Royal Oak, MI __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ From YankeeDD at twmi.rr.com Fri Jul 16 15:34:11 2004 From: YankeeDD at twmi.rr.com (Joyce Stevens) Date: Fri Jul 16 15:34:09 2004 Subject: [BHC] Alternatives not explored? In-Reply-To: <20040716211136.61780.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Concerning the extensive use of volunteers, in a LABOR oriented city, this is an anathema. Volunteers eliminate the need for paid workers and thus the employees would be losing potential jobs. Yes, I realize this is ridiculous, but isn't the entire scenario now? Also, I can only question that the entire problem is a "setup" for we non-residents to get into a line in Lansing to complain. If this is the case, I understand where the Library is coming from, idiocy that it is. Joyce Stevens Once upon a time a City employee. -----Original Message----- From: BHC-bounces@habitant.org [mailto:BHC-bounces@habitant.org]On Behalf Of M Ehr Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 5:12 PM To: BHC@habitant.org Subject: [BHC] Alternatives not explored? Burton Historical Collection List _______________________________________________ Does anyone know whether DPL approached any of the local genealogical/historical/other societies or individual users (to my knowledge, at least) to discuss alternative approaches to reducing the financial burden on DPL without placing it on non-resident users? I'm guessing that the answer is no, and if that's true, it's a shame. I have a hard time believing DPL's assertion in the FAQ that "In most cases, librarians in DPLs special collections provide in-depth research assistance to the customers who utilize the collections." In my experience, there have really been only two reasons why I've needed to consult staffers, other than to have materials retrieved from the closed stacks. Either I've been unfamiliar with what the Burton holds and how to access it (most frequently in the microfilm room), or I've found something in the catalog that I can't find on the shelf. While I have overheard others asking for assistance who clearly just don't know where to start exploring their history, that has been once or twice in all the times I've visited the Burton. I've not seen many instances in which librarians are "provid[ing] in-depth research assistance" to anyone. It seems to me that most scenarios in which researchers ask for help actually require only very basic levels of assistance. A trained volunteer (or, for that matter, a well-written basic research guide or series of guides) could handle probably 75% of the requests for assistance, such as providing an overview of the collections, directing people to specific resources, etc. Volunteers could also assist with lookups and other basic research requests. This would allow the librarians to concentrate on the 25% (or less) of questions that require more in-depth knowledge and skills. I, for one, would have been more than happy to donate my time and knowledge to assist others in using the collections, at no cost to DPL. Of course, considering that in the redesign of the DPL website, almost all of the useful information about the Burton's genealogical holdings was deleted (and I didn't get a very good explanation when I emailed DPL about that), it doesn't seem that DPL is actually very interested in helping people make good use of the Burton. And again, I find it ridiculous that DPL contends that they have to charge a fee to use the special collections because we non-residents are apparently such a drain on their resources, yet makes no provision for those fees to actually be reserved for the special collections. The more we learn about this policy, the less logical sense it makes. Meg Ehr Royal Oak, MI __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ _______________________________________________ BHC mailing list BHC@habitant.org http://habitant.org/mailman/listinfo/bhc_habitant.org From georgia at corpsie.com Fri Jul 16 15:53:46 2004 From: georgia at corpsie.com (Georgia Clark) Date: Fri Jul 16 15:53:14 2004 Subject: [BHC] Alternatives not explored? References: <20040716211136.61780.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <40F85C7A.853203F8@corpsie.com> Dear Meg, That has pretty much been my experience too. Most of the visitors know what they want and where to find it but there has to be someone there to answer questions about the collection and help the neophytes just as there should be in any other part of the library, for instance, the map collection. Does anyone know why the microfilms are in another place? Is it just lack of space or has there been a problem with theft. Several years ago I was able to go to the St. Louis County (Missouri) library where they have a genealogy collection and all the microfilms were on shelves open to the public. One did have to put purses, bags, etc. in a locker before entering the room. In addition, all (or most) of the microfilm readers were also photocopiers; cost for copies was just $0.10 each. Also, it wouldn't hurt to update or redo the Burton's finding aids, including putting them on the website or some place that would be accessible to researchers. Georgia M Ehr wrote: > Burton Historical Collection List > _______________________________________________ > > Does anyone know whether DPL approached any of the > local genealogical/historical/other societies or > individual users (to my knowledge, at least) to > discuss alternative approaches to reducing the > financial burden on DPL without placing it on > non-resident users? I'm guessing that the answer is > no, and if that's true, it's a shame. > > I have a hard time believing DPL's assertion in the > FAQ that "In most cases, librarians in DPL?s special > collections provide in-depth research assistance to > the customers who utilize the collections." In my > experience, there have really been only two reasons > why I've needed to consult staffers, other than to > have materials retrieved from the closed stacks. > Either I've been unfamiliar with what the Burton holds > and how to access it (most frequently in the microfilm > room), or I've found something in the catalog that I > can't find on the shelf. While I have overheard others > asking for assistance who clearly just don't know > where to start exploring their history, that has been > once or twice in all the times I've visited the > Burton. I've not seen many instances in which > librarians are "provid[ing] in-depth research > assistance" to anyone. > > It seems to me that most scenarios in which > researchers ask for help actually require only very > basic levels of assistance. A trained volunteer (or, > for that matter, a well-written basic research guide > or series of guides) could handle probably 75% of the > requests for assistance, such as providing an overview > of the collections, directing people to specific > resources, etc. Volunteers could also assist with > lookups and other basic research requests. This would > allow the librarians to concentrate on the 25% (or > less) of questions that require more in-depth > knowledge and skills. > > I, for one, would have been more than happy to donate > my time and knowledge to assist others in using the > collections, at no cost to DPL. Of course, considering > that in the redesign of the DPL website, almost all of > the useful information about the Burton's genealogical > holdings was deleted (and I didn't get a very good > explanation when I emailed DPL about that), it doesn't > seem that DPL is actually very interested in helping > people make good use of the Burton. > > And again, I find it ridiculous that DPL contends that > they have to charge a fee to use the special > collections because we non-residents are apparently > such a drain on their resources, yet makes no > provision for those fees to actually be reserved for > the special collections. > > The more we learn about this policy, the less logical > sense it makes. > > Meg Ehr > Royal Oak, MI > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ > > _______________________________________________ > BHC mailing list > BHC@habitant.org > http://habitant.org/mailman/listinfo/bhc_habitant.org From dulongj at habitant.org Sun Jul 18 16:41:40 2004 From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong) Date: Sun Jul 18 16:39:54 2004 Subject: [BHC] Implications of a Usage Fee for Genealogical and Historical Research Message-ID: Folks, What if the Detroit Public Library precedent of charging a fee to use a special collection catches on? What would that mean for genealogical and historical research? Imagine if every public library you visited in a year of research charged you $100 to just use its special collection. In a typical summer research trip I can visit between six and ten public libraries. This would mean paying an additional $600 to $1000 in fees. Typically, it is the case that I will use these libraries only once per every five years! This kind of cost would make doing genealogical research in public libraries cost prohibitive. Now expand this precedent. What if public archives and historical collections start charging a usage fee? Would you historians want to face usage fees at all these institutions? But wait you think, DuLong is going off on a rant again, little public libraries do not have special collections. Wrong, they do. The public libraries of Sault Ste. Marie, Marquette, and Green Bay, Wisconsin, are just three places I have used in my past research that have special collections. Perhaps you can think of more small towns with nice special collections for local history and genealogy. We users of the Burton Historical Collection have a vested interest in stopping this absurd usage fee. But we also owe it to all genealogical and historical researchers to resist this fee. Furthermore, we have to get others across the nation on board. If the Detroit Public Library is successful in imposing a usage fee, then they will jeopardize genealogical and historical research across the nation. Get the word out. Let other generalical and historical societies know about this situation every chance you get. We have to keep public libraries open to the public. Regards, JP John P. DuLong, Ph.D. Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy 959 Oxford Road Berkley, MI 48072-2011 USA (248) 541-2894 dulongj@habitant.org From dulongj at habitant.org Sun Jul 18 17:22:01 2004 From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong) Date: Sun Jul 18 17:20:15 2004 Subject: [BHC] Plan of Action Released Message-ID: Hello Folks, OK, my vacation and training are over and I am back in the saddle and ready to run. Now lets get serious about this usage fee issue. In this email I will enclose three documents: (1) the letter I am sending to Ms. DiChiera, the current president of the Detroit Library Commission; (2) the letter I am sending to Ms. Skowronski, the director of the Detroit Public Library; and (3) our plan of action. Please note that the plan of action has been modified to take into account some of your recommendations. PLEASE, do NOT take any of the steps in the plan of action until we hear back from the library. It is still my hope that they back down. But come 1 August 2004, if this policy is not rescinded, then I will let all of you know it is time to go into action and start our donation boycott. Also, please do not assume that the donation boycott is the only action we will take. I am planning a series of escalating projects we can engage in. However, I do not want to rush them all out at once. It would only serve to exhaust both you and I. The sad truth is that if this usage fee is not rescinded, then I think we are in for a long struggle, longer than our past struggles with the library administration. But folks just keep in mind we have won most of our fights in the past and I think we can also do so now. Here are the three documents: ********** Advocates for the Burton Historical Collection 18 July 2004 Ms. Karen DiChiera, President Detroit Library Commission 5201 Woodward Ave. Detroit, MI 48202 Dear Ms. DiChiera: On behalf of the Advocates for the Burton Historical Collection, I am officially registering our protest of the special collections usage fee that the Detroit Library Commissioners adopted on 15 June 2004. Enclosed you will find the Plan of Action we have endorsed and will follow if this unfair usage fee is not rescinded before 1 August 2004. I have also enclosed a copy of a letter to Ms. Skowronski, the Director of the Detroit Public Library, proposing that we negotiate a compromise. Please understand that we do not oppose a borrowing fee. This is a reasonable regulation and had been approved in the past by the Michigan Attorney General. However, we have been unable to find a single example of a public library in Michigan or elsewhere in the United States charging patrons a fee for using a special collection. Such a usage fee would be a dangerous precedent that all historical and genealogical societies in the United States would find objectionable. Furthermore, it would appear to contradict the 1963 state of Michigan constitution, art. 8, sec. 9, which states: The legislature shall provide by law for the establishment and support of public libraries which shall be available to all residents of the state under regulations adopted by the governing bodies thereof. A usage fee is simply an unreasonable regulation and runs the risk of being viewed as a tax by the Attorney General. We will be asking our state senators and representatives to approach Mr. Michael Cox, the current Attorney General, and ask him to render an opinion on the constitutionality of a usage fee. Please rescind this unwise and very likely unconstitutional policy so that we can stop working at cross-purposes and start working on having the legislature restore the necessary state funding. Sincerely, John P. DuLong, Ph.D. Advocates for the Burton Historical Collection 959 Oxford Road Berkley, MI 48072-2011 (313) 916-2550, work (248) 541-2894, home (313) 874-4730, fax dulongj@habitant.org http://habitant.org/bhc ********** Advocates for the Burton Historical Collection 18 July 2004 Ms. Nancy Skowronski Director Detroit Public Library 5201 Woodward Ave. Detroit, MI 48202 Dear Ms. Skowronski: On behalf of the Advocates for the Burton Historical Collection, I am officially registering our protest of the special collections usage fee that the Detroit Library Commissioners adopted on 15 June 2004. Enclosed you will find the Plan of Action we have endorsed and will follow if this unfair usage fee is not rescinded before 1 August 2004. A copy of this letter and the Plan of Action are also being sent to Ms. DiChiera, the President of the Detroit Library Commission. The imposition of this usage fee will only drive patrons away from the Burton Historical Collection and the other special collections. The library will not raise even a fraction of the monies needed to replace the lost state funding. This move will alienate non-Detroiter patrons who are not only the most numerous users of the special collections but also the majority of donors to the library. There are a number of reasons that make this usage fee unwise and very little reason to think that it will ever benefit the library and its Detroit patrons. I deeply regret having to engage in a donation boycott and I would hope that there is still time to avoid it. It would be far better for the patrons and your administration to have all of us working together to restore the state funding than to have us at odds with one another. In that spirit, I would suggest we meet to discuss a possible compromise. Perhaps something could be worked out with the following principles as starting points: 1. That until the Michigan constitutionality of charging a usage fee is determined, that the library request donations from the patrons for using the special collections. We would like to see a sliding scale for donations taking into account one time users, senior citizens, non-resident Detroit property owners, and others falling under special circumstances. 2. If, and only if, it is proven to be constitutional, should this voluntary donation be turned into a required fee. 3. That all the raised donations/fees should be spent exclusively on the Burton Historical Collection and the other special collections. 4. That an annual report be made to the public documenting how the collected money was spent to benefit the Burton Historical Collections and special collections. 5. That the making of a donation beyond $50 would automatically include registration with the Friends of the Detroit Public Library and/or Friends of the Burton Historical Collection. 6. That the Advocates join with the efforts of the library administration and the Friends of the Detroit Public Library to re-establish the state funding. I think you will find people more willing to cooperate with a donation campaign than a fee. Several people have told me that they would only feel comfortable contributing if they were assured the funds would be used on the special collections. Please understand that whatever the result of our discussions, I would still have to take back any proposals to the Advocates and ask them to endorse them. I will call you when I return from my vacation on the week of 12 July 2004 to see if we can arrange a meeting for the purpose of hammering out a mutually beneficial agreement. I am sure you share my concern to avoid a donation boycott, but unless an alternative is found that satisfies the patrons, or the usage fee is dropped, I fear that a donation boycott is inevitable. Sincerely, John P. DuLong, Ph.D. Advocates for the Burton Historical Collection 959 Oxford Road Berkley, MI 48072-2011 (313) 916-2550, work (248) 541-2894, home (313) 874-4730, fax dulongj@habitant.org http://habitant.org/bhc ********* Plan of Action to Protest the Detroit Public Library Access Fee The Detroit Library Commission has failed to realize that the majority of Burton Historical Collection patrons not only come from the suburbs and from out-state Michigan, but also are major financial contributors to the Detroit Public Library. The non-Detroit patrons of the Burton Historical Collection, individually and through the societies they belong to, have donated funds, equipment, volunteer hours, expertise, historical materials, and family records to the library for decades. We have written and spoken about the value of the Burton Historical Collection to audiences across the nation and internationally and have encouraged people to use and support the collection. Why should we continue to support and be generous to a library that excludes us? Given the removal of state funding, we understand the need for a borrowing fee to support this program for non-Detroiters, but an access fee is simply punitive. Moreover, we have been unable to find a single example of a public library in the United States of America that charges a usage fee. The Detroit Public Library lost their state funding?in large part due to scandals surrounding the mismanagement of grants and donations?and is now taking it out on non-residents who have been the most vocal supporters of the Burton Historical Collection and the library in general. Furthermore, this usage fee was decided without consulting the patrons, the Friends of the Burton Historical Collections, knowledgeable library staff, or the affected organizations. This usage fee will not be an effective way to replace the lost state funding, but it certainly will generate much bad publicity for the Detroit Public Library. In order to impress upon the Detroit Library Commission and the Detroit Public Library administration the seriousness of our objection to this unfair usage fee, we believe it is now necessary to engage in a donation boycott. If the access fee is imposed on the non-Detroit patrons of the Detroit Public Library on 1 August 2004, then we pledge to take the following actions starting on that date: 1. Although most of us will not pay the fee and will do our research elsewhere, for those of us who absolutely must use the Burton Historical Collection?due to the nature of our research?we will do so under protest and will formally complain to the Detroit Library Commission. 2. Those of us who belong to the Friends of the Detroit Public Library will resign and refuse to renew our memberships. 3. We will refuse to personally donate any funds whatsoever to the Detroit Public Library. 4. We will refuse to participate in any fund raising programs the Detroit Public Library engages in. We will not volunteer to help with any of these programs. We will encourage others not to cooperate with the library. 5. We will encourage others not to donate to the library. This includes making a special effort to contact past individual contributors who have made large contributions. We will write to the major corporate donors to the Detroit Public Library and ask them to no longer financially support the library. 6. We will contact societies we belong to that have contributed in the past and ask them to withhold any further donations. We will ask organizations that have donated materials to the Burton Historical Collection in the past, with the clear understanding that they would be open to the public, to demand the return of these materials. We will encourage them to donate these materials to other institutions. 7. We will strongly encourage people not to donate historical and genealogical materials to the Burton Historical Collection and instead to donate them to other worthy collections in the state. 8. We will coordinate our efforts with the patrons of the National Automotive History Collection, the E. Azalia Hackley Collection, the Great Lakes Patent and Trademark Center, the Map Collection, and the Rare Book Collection. We will ask them to join us in our donation boycott. We will also make a special effort to reach out to our Detroit friends and ask them to understand our position and support us. 9. We will distribute this plan of action across the Internet to every historical and genealogical group with an interest in the Burton Historical Collection and ask them to join our effort and spread the word to their members. 10. We will publicly protest this policy and attract media attention to our cause. When the access fee is rescinded we will cease these actions and resume our past support of the Detroit Public Library. Also, we will vigorously support any efforts to reinstate state funding to the Detroit Public Library as we have done in the past. In essence we are calling for a donation boycott of the Detroit Public Library. We do not want to do this and it is in the interest of the library that this boycott not be initiated at all. Once a boycott starts, even when it results in success and is called off, there is usually a long lasting and damaging fall off in donations that takes years to rebuild. The Detroit Library Commission has until 1 August 2004 to rescind the access fee on the non-Detroiters. ********* Regards, JP John P. DuLong, Ph.D. Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy 959 Oxford Road Berkley, MI 48072-2011 USA (248) 541-2894 dulongj@habitant.org From dulongj at habitant.org Sun Jul 18 17:52:17 2004 From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong) Date: Sun Jul 18 17:50:30 2004 Subject: [BHC] FW: Letter to my Michigan State representative (final) Message-ID: Folks, Mike asked me to forward his letter to you. In a few days I was going to ask you to write your state representative and senator and request that they ask Mr. Cox, the Attorney General, to rule on the constitutionality of a usage fee. But since Mike has written such a fine letter as an example for us, I think it is perhaps just as good to start now. So please write to your local legislator. To locate the name of your state representative, just point your browser to http://house.michigan.gov/find_a_rep.asp. Your state senator can be found at http://www.senate.michigan.gov/SenatorInfo/find-your-senator.htm Mr. Cox will not give his formal opinion on the constitutionality of a library usage fee without being asked to by a state legislator. So lets make sure he gets asked! And let me close by saying what a fine letter Mike wrote. Wish I could be half as eloquent. JP -----Original Message----- From: MICHAEL DAVIS [mailto:mwrdavis@earthlink.net] Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 5:19 PM To: John P. DuLong Subject: Letter to my Michigan State representative (final) John, please feel free to forward to your Burton listserv. Mike ============================================ July 18, 2004 Hon. David Woodward State Representative, District 26 NO790 House Office Building P.O. Box 30014 Lansing, MI 489009-7514 Dear Mr. Woodward: There is a matter of urgency that requires your attention. As of August 2, the Detroit Public Library is imposing a $100 usage fee on non-Detroiters. I am a constituent of yours, having lived at 1919 Cedar Hill Drive in the Vinsetta Park neighborhood of Royal Oak for the last 14 years. Although I have lived in Oakland County since 1957, like most persons my employment has always been on the south side of Eight Mile Road including 11 years in the city of Detroit. For the last dozen years, since retiring as executive director of the Detroit Historical Society, I have been an active volunteer at the Detroit Public Library (DPL), principally as a fundraiser for the National Automotive History Collection (NAHC). As a graduate student at Eastern Michigan and Wayne State Universities and an author/journalist, I also have made extensive use of various Main Branch DPL facilities over the years. As you may know, the city of Detroit funded the DPL until the city's loss of population and declining economic circumstances caused the city administration to seek support for Detroit's various cultural institutions from the State of Michigan. This plea for help was accepted more than a quarter century ago. In recent years, however, the State support has eroded down to virtually nothing. I am quite aware of some of the philosophical, partisan political and rural-versus-urban aspects of the State's recent actions. Under the resulting financial constraints but with neither public hearing nor consultation with library support organizations, the Detroit Library Commission and the DPL administration have decided, effective August 2nd, to levy a $100 annual user fee on any persons not Detroit residents except for students at schools and colleges within the city. A special problem arises from the DPL's special research collections, mainly the Burton Historical Collection, the National Automotive History Collection and the Patent Library, which draw researchers not only from outside Detroit but from all over the globe. Also implied in the DPL's decision is creation of a new barrier between the city and suburbs. Non-Detroiters who work in the city and pay city income taxes will have to pay the levy. Non-Detroiters who own real estate in the city and pay property taxes, including millage supporting the DPL, will have to pay the levy. Employees of major auto manufacturers and suppliers who have contributed hundreds of thousands of dollars to the DPL and the NAHC will have to pay the levy. Faculty members at the schools and colleges in the city, if not residents, will have to pay the levy. Students and faculty from schools and colleges not in the city will have to pay the levy. Journalists who are not Detroiters will have to pay. Even government officials such as yourself will have to pay the levy. The $100 fee will be charged for even casual one-time access to these research collections whether in person or by phone, fax or email. For the most part these research collections have been built with private financial support; in the case of the NAHC, the private support group also is paying a major part of the employment cost of one of the three professional staff librarians. The Burton, established decades ago with a huge legacy, is the official depository for countless public and private organizational records and is a major genealogical and scholarly historical resource. Further, under this rule, even persons who have donated archival material may not examine their own contributions without paying the levy. This is lunacy. The supporters of these research collections believe there are questions about the legality of this levy. As we understand it, the Attorney General of Michigan can only undertake a determination of the legality of such an action upon request from the Governor or member of the legislature. Accordingly, as a constituent, I hereby ask that you make such a request to the Attorney General. Because of impending imposition of the levy in just two weeks, a restraint order may have to be issued by the Attorney General while the matter is studied. I will be happy to answer any questions you may have, or come to Lansing at my own expense to discuss the matter with you and the Attorney General. FYI, governance of the Detroit Public Library is murky. Members of the Detroit Library Commission are selected by the Detroit Board of Education, which under present law is appointed by the Governor, who in turn has delegated this responsibility to the mayor of Detroit. The Library Director is appointed by, and is responsible to, the Commission. Sincerely, Michael W. R. Davis Chairman Emeritus, National Automotive History Collection Board of Trustees Member, Burton Advocates 1919 Cedar Hill Drive Royal Oak, MI 48067 248/399-0114 (a hard copy also is being mailed to you) From dulongj at habitant.org Sun Jul 18 18:12:35 2004 From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong) Date: Sun Jul 18 18:10:49 2004 Subject: [BHC] Alternatives not explored? In-Reply-To: <40F85C7A.853203F8@corpsie.com> Message-ID: Georgia Clark [mailto:georgia@corpsie.com] wrote: >Does anyone know why the microfilms are in another place? Is it just >lack of space or has there been a problem with theft. Several years ago >I was able to go to the St. Louis County (Missouri) library where they >have a genealogy collection and all the microfilms were on shelves open >to the public. One did have to put purses, bags, etc. in a locker before >entering the room. In addition, all (or most) of the microfilm readers >were also photocopiers; cost for copies was just $0.10 each. > >Also, it wouldn't hurt to update or redo the Burton's finding aids, >including putting them on the website or some place that would be >accessible to researchers. I would assume the major reason the microfilms are not self-serve is that many of them are not upstairs and they do not have the space or staff to properly initiate self-service. As for the finding aids, with a staff down to four professional librarians, it is difficult to cover the desk, do other basic assignments, and prepare finding aids. Georgia, you raise excellent points, and in the past we have all offered suggestion on how to improve the collection. Sadly, I think we are at the point now of just trying to insure the survival of the Burton. Any improvements will have to wait. JP From dulongj at habitant.org Sun Jul 18 18:12:37 2004 From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong) Date: Sun Jul 18 18:10:57 2004 Subject: [BHC] Mark Your Calendar! Message-ID: Folks, Several of you have told me that you want to do something more active by way of protesting the unfair usage fee at the Detroit Public Library. Well here is your chance. I am calling for an informational picket of the Detroit Public Library at 11:00am Saturday 7 August 2004. I will need at least 40 people to show up, the more the better. It would be grand to have 20 at the front entrance and 20 at the back entrance. Of course, having 50 or a 100 at each entrance would be better! So please let me know if you are willing to picket on that day. You will have to make up your own signs, so be creative! The best sign gets a free drink on me. If you can not think of anything better, then just write on your sign "Let My Ancestors Go, Free the Burton Historical Collection." I figure we will stop picketing around 1:00pm and go have a late lunch at Circa. During this picketing I will need between 5 and 10 volunteers, and some of you have already done so, to go into the Burton and ask to be served. When you are denied just tell the librarian that it is a violation of the Michigan state constitution. I will be there to record the data we need if we have to go on with a lawsuit against the library. Since we are all nice and sweet genealogists, historians, archivists, and librarians, I am sure that this protest will be extremely non-violent and non-threatening. Remember the librarians and the staff are our friends. Now I also need your help getting the media to attend our picket. So if you have any contacts among the media, now is the time to plead with them to come to our protest on the 7th. If any of you have experience mobilizing the media, then please contact me and help me, I am a novice at this. You have told me you are angry and want to do something, so this is your chance. Do not count on the other guy showing up, mark the date on your calendar, and be there with a home made sign. Bring your spouse, children, grandchildren, cousin, and neighbor. And we especially need you Detroit residents among us to be there! Lastly, please also mark 1:30pm Tuesday 21 September 2004 on your calendar. This is the date of the next Detroit Library Commission meeting. I realize that this is a burden for many of you because it is in the middle of the working day, but I also know many of you are retired. So please show up at this meeting, stand up, and tell these commissioners why this usage fee is so stupid! I will be there and I will let them know in no uncertain terms that this usage fee is a disaster for the Detroit Public Library. I am counting on you folks to back me up on these days. We will never succeed if the Detroit Library Commission believes that it is just John P. DuLong who thinks they are wrong. The only thing they seem to understand is massive public outrage, so let us give it to them. Lastly, please forward this email on to anyone you think would want to join us in our protest. My best regards, JP John P. DuLong, Ph.D. Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy 959 Oxford Road Berkley, MI 48072-2011 USA (248) 541-2894 dulongj@habitant.org From dulongj at habitant.org Sun Jul 18 18:22:52 2004 From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong) Date: Sun Jul 18 18:21:10 2004 Subject: [BHC] Thoughts on Burton resources In-Reply-To: <20040712143114.24040.qmail@web21206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: M Ehr [mailto:ehr09@yahoo.com] wrote: >Besides the Archdiocesan records and photo >collections, what else does the Burton hold that would >be difficult or impossible to obtain through other >sources? The Burton Historical Collection has an irreplaceable manuscript collection. If you are doing research on the history of Detroit, Michigan, the Great Lakes, and New France, then you have to consult these manuscripts to be thorough. Just the papers on the fur trade alone would make the Burton unique. It also have a wealth of information on Great Lakes shipping. Its photograph collection is simply amazing. For French Canadians with Detroit roots, the Burton is the single best place to do research because it documents their ancestors in great detail. As for the books, periodicals, and microfilms, most of these can be found at other libraries including the Library of Michigan and the Allen County Public Library in Fort Wayne, Indiana. Hope that answers your question. JP From mwigle at virtual-impact.ca Sun Jul 18 18:25:02 2004 From: mwigle at virtual-impact.ca (Marc Wigle) Date: Sun Jul 18 18:25:21 2004 Subject: [BHC] Mark Your Calendar! References: Message-ID: <005201c46d2f$3798d570$204a71d8@yourus67pi6luv> I had heard so much about the BHC that I had intended to drive to Detroit this August to search for info on my American relatives. The drive to Detroit is approx 8-9 hours from my home just outside of Ottawa, Canada. Most of my family grew up in Essex County in southwestern Ontario (Windsor and area) while the American side grew up in Detroit and area. Considering how much American blood runs through my veins, I consider myself almost as much an American as I do a Canadian. Because of the $100 fee, I can't possibly see how that I could justify paying the fee for a once a year trip to Detroit knowing that I couldn't take advantage of the membership. I support the idea of picketing at the library but a trip to Detroit for me is not possible at this point. Instead, I plan to write to the people who have been suggested as well as the US Ambassador to Canada in Ottawa. He may be interested in why a few people aren't planning to visit Detroit as a result of this fee. Yours in the struggle, Marc Wigle Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "John P. DuLong" To: Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 9:12 PM Subject: [BHC] Mark Your Calendar! > Burton Historical Collection List > _______________________________________________ > > > Folks, > > Several of you have told me that you want to do something more active by way > of protesting the unfair usage fee at the Detroit Public Library. Well here > is your chance. > > I am calling for an informational picket of the Detroit Public Library at > 11:00am Saturday 7 August 2004. I will need at least 40 people to show up, > the more the better. It would be grand to have 20 at the front entrance and > 20 at the back entrance. Of course, having 50 or a 100 at each entrance > would be better! So please let me know if you are willing to picket on that > day. > > You will have to make up your own signs, so be creative! The best sign gets > a free drink on me. If you can not think of anything better, then just > write on your sign "Let My Ancestors Go, Free the Burton Historical > Collection." > > I figure we will stop picketing around 1:00pm and go have a late lunch at > Circa. > > During this picketing I will need between 5 and 10 volunteers, and some of > you have already done so, to go into the Burton and ask to be served. When > you are denied just tell the librarian that it is a violation of the > Michigan state constitution. I will be there to record the data we need if > we have to go on with a lawsuit against the library. > > Since we are all nice and sweet genealogists, historians, archivists, and > librarians, I am sure that this protest will be extremely non-violent and > non-threatening. Remember the librarians and the staff are our friends. > > Now I also need your help getting the media to attend our picket. So if you > have any contacts among the media, now is the time to plead with them to > come to our protest on the 7th. If any of you have experience mobilizing the > media, then please contact me and help me, I am a novice at this. > > You have told me you are angry and want to do something, so this is your > chance. Do not count on the other guy showing up, mark the date on your > calendar, and be there with a home made sign. Bring your spouse, children, > grandchildren, cousin, and neighbor. And we especially need you Detroit > residents among us to be there! > > Lastly, please also mark 1:30pm Tuesday 21 September 2004 on your calendar. > This is the date of the next Detroit Library Commission meeting. I realize > that this is a burden for many of you because it is in the middle of the > working day, but I also know many of you are retired. So please show up at > this meeting, stand up, and tell these commissioners why this usage fee is > so stupid! I will be there and I will let them know in no uncertain terms > that this usage fee is a disaster for the Detroit Public Library. > > I am counting on you folks to back me up on these days. We will never > succeed if the Detroit Library Commission believes that it is just John P. > DuLong who thinks they are wrong. The only thing they seem to understand is > massive public outrage, so let us give it to them. > > Lastly, please forward this email on to anyone you think would want to join > us in our protest. > > My best regards, > > JP > > John P. DuLong, Ph.D. > Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy > 959 Oxford Road > Berkley, MI 48072-2011 > USA > (248) 541-2894 > dulongj@habitant.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > BHC mailing list > BHC@habitant.org > http://habitant.org/mailman/listinfo/bhc_habitant.org > > From kmmutch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 20:24:31 2004 From: kmmutch at yahoo.com (kathleen mutch) Date: Sun Jul 18 20:24:29 2004 Subject: [BHC] RE: contacting state legislators Message-ID: <20040719032431.32880.qmail@web41302.mail.yahoo.com> FYI State Rep Dave Woodward is term-limited and not running for re-election to his house seat so he may not be in the position long enough to do anything that will help. However, he is endorsing a Royal Oak City Council member who is running for his state rep position. I think funding for the BHC is an issue that each Advocate should be taking to each of the candidates in his/her district running for the state legislature - not just current officeholders. Educate them on the issue now, try to get a commitment of support and then vote for the one who is most likely to represent your views on this issue if elected. Kathy Mutch, Novi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/bhc_habitant.org/attachments/20040718/31b31861/attachment.htm From dulongj at habitant.org Mon Jul 19 15:18:05 2004 From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong) Date: Mon Jul 19 15:16:29 2004 Subject: [BHC] Mistaken Date in Letter to Ms. Skowronski Message-ID: OK, I made a mistake in the letter to Ms. Skowronski. I mention calling her on my return from vacation on the 12th though the letter is dated the 18th. It was my intention to edit that out, and I thought I had, but obviously I missed it. Sorry. But I am confident that even Ms. Skowronski will understand that it is a simple mistake. I mailed off the letters early this morning and they should arrive tomorrow morning. I will wait until Wednesday to call Ms. Skowronski. Wish me luck. JP John P. DuLong, Ph.D. Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy 959 Oxford Road Berkley, MI 48072-2011 USA (248) 541-2894 dulongj@habitant.org From dulongj at habitant.org Mon Jul 19 19:16:58 2004 From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong) Date: Mon Jul 19 19:15:20 2004 Subject: [BHC] Implications of a Usage Fee for Genealogical and Historical Research In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Folks, I just thought I would share with you the reaction I received from a knowledgeable Ph.D. and MLS who I greatly respect. > You are not ranting, you are accurately predicting. Just think (as you > have) of how such a policy will retard research of all kinds, not just > that of a genealogical nature. History in particular will be hard hit, > as most special collections house materials relating to the past. The > result would be akin to a person getting Alzheimer's disease where we > slowly lose track of what really transpired in the past. Since legal > work is often a review of what transpired previously, I can see law > libraries being considered as special collections and fees being > charged to use them. Yes, this idea is a cancer that must be removed > now before it spreads. And finally, what does this say about the state > of library education today that a member of the profession would > propose such an anti-intellectual method of making ends meet? As a > former information provider, I would be ashamed if something like this > ever occurred on my watch and on my turf. I have heard now from several librarians and archivists about the absurdity of the DPL usage fee. I just hope their professional organizations take a stand on this issue. JP From dulongj at habitant.org Wed Jul 21 06:05:35 2004 From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong) Date: Wed Jul 21 06:05:59 2004 Subject: [BHC] The Library Admininstration Just Blinked Message-ID: <1090415135.40fe6a1fde2d1@login.aries.lunarpages.com> Hello Folks, I just got word from Diane Haddad, Managing Editor, Family Tree Magazine, that the Detroit Public Library has issued a new FAQ. (Ms. Haddad is doing a story about this whole usage fee issue.) The library administration has backed down a little with three new concessions: 5. What about customers who only visit the library once or twice a year to use the special collections. Will they have to pay $100? DPL values the customers who make special trips to Detroit to use the special collections. These customers can pay a daily use fee of $10 per day, to use any of the special collections. A daily use fee does not allow borrowing privileges. 6. How do you define ?access to the special collections?? Does this mean that people will not be allowed to enter the special collections, even if they only want to look around? At present, the Hackley Collection is by appointment only and will continue to be that way. The Burton and NAHC collections will remain free to browsers. Any staff assistance will require a library card or a daily use fee. 21. Will library volunteers pay for a library card? No. Library volunteers receive the same library borrowing privileges as DPL employees. You can view the new FAQ for yourself at http://detroit.lib.mi.us/About_DPL/graphics/THE%20DETROIT%20PUBLIC%20LIBRARY.pdf Although these changes are welcomed and would be perfectly appropriate for a PRIVATE library, the usage fee still violates our access to a public library as guranteed by the consitution of the state of Michigan. Furthermore, the concession allowing us to browse the reading room of the Burton does us very little good since most of the materials are in closed stacks. Now I need to know from you what we should do? Should we still go ahead with the donation boycott? Should we modify the Plan of Action? Should we postpone the informational picket? I need to hear from as many of you as possible as soon as possible. Unless otherwise advised by most of you, it is still my plan to call Ms. Skowronski today and ask for a meeting to negotiate a better outcome for us. However, I will wait until after lunch to call her. I want to thank Ms. Haddad and Family Tree Magazine for taking an interest in our case. Also, I want to thank all of you who have made your strong opposition to this usage fee clear by endorsing our Plan of Action. I count this as at least a partial victory for us. However, I think we still have to go much further. Lastly, I want to thank any library insiders who helped push through these three changes. My Best Regards to All of You, JP John P. DuLong, Ph.D. Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy 959 Oxford Road Berkley, MI 48072-2011 (248) 541-2894 http://habitant.org From dulongj at habitant.org Wed Jul 21 06:32:59 2004 From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong) Date: Wed Jul 21 06:33:01 2004 Subject: [BHC] Clarification? Message-ID: <1090416779.40fe708be57f9@login.aries.lunarpages.com> Someone just pointed out to me that item 21 in the new FAQ is ambiguous. It says "Library volunteers receive the same library borrowing privileges as DPL employees." However, this person pointed out to me that the Detroit Public Library non-resident employees are not exempt from the $100 usage fee. Is this true. I quickly re-read the new FAQ and see no mention that non-resident library employees must also pay. Did I miss something? Is this a change between the first FAQ and this new FAQ? I can not believe that the library would be so unjust to its own employees. JP John P. DuLong, Ph.D. Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy 959 Oxford Road Berkley, MI 48072-2011 (248) 541-2894 http://habitant.org From jgorentz at iserv.net Wed Jul 21 06:43:26 2004 From: jgorentz at iserv.net (John Gorentz) Date: Wed Jul 21 06:42:02 2004 Subject: [BHC] The Library Admininstration Just Blinked In-Reply-To: <1090415135.40fe6a1fde2d1@login.aries.lunarpages.com> Message-ID: <4.2.2.20040721091253.01984890@mail.iserv.net> At 06:05 AM 7/21/04 -0700, John P. DuLong wrote: >Burton Historical Collection List >_______________________________________________ > > >Hello Folks, > >I just got word from Diane Haddad, Managing Editor, Family Tree Magazine, that >the Detroit Public Library has issued a new FAQ. (Ms. Haddad is doing a story >about this whole usage fee issue.) The library administration has backed down >a little with three new concessions: > >5. What about customers who only visit the library once or twice a year to >use the special collections. Will they have to pay $100? > >DPL values the customers who make special trips to Detroit to use the special >collections. These customers can pay a daily use fee of $10 per day, to >use any >of the special collections. A daily use fee does not allow borrowing >privileges. To me, this changes thing a lot. I had been doing a slow burn about the idea of the $100 fee, especially since you posted that note about "what if every library does it." As someone who has so far used over 30 libraries and archives for his project, I got to thinking that this could get to be an expensive hobby. What really got me was that the DPL was apparently using this fee not to control costs and usage, but to pressure people into raising a fuss. Libraries that really want to use a fee for partial cost recovery won't offer a yearly fee, take it or leave it. They will offer lower fees for shorter term usage so as to generate MORE revenue, not less. And now that's what the DPL is doing. I think it's still a mixed bag. Downsides: It creates work for library staff to collect and manage the fees. It may give people the false impression that their fees are paying for their usage, when in reality I bet they will cover only a small portion of the costs of making the collection accessible. Users of the collection still need to be made aware that these collections need public support, and/or an economic and legal environment in which deep private pockets are willing to support them. They can't run just on user fees. On the other hand, maybe the fee, if properly handled, will help make people more conscious of the fact that these collections do require financial support. In fact, I think I just talked myself into writing a letter about it to my state legislators. But with this new action, I don't see the grounds for complaining about the cost. It costs me $4 to park under the DIA for a day. When I go bicycle touring to the history sites I'm studying, it costs me $20/night to camp, give or take, and a lot more than that if I chicken out and motel it. It costs me to visit most museums. Where else can I get a whole day's recreation and entertainment for $10? John Gorentz From ken at pro-usa.net Wed Jul 21 06:52:16 2004 From: ken at pro-usa.net (Ken) Date: Wed Jul 21 06:52:00 2004 Subject: [BHC] The Library Admininstration Just Blinked References: <1090415135.40fe6a1fde2d1@login.aries.lunarpages.com> Message-ID: <009e01c46f29$f12088c0$4be094ce@ken> Is the Burton Collection owned by the DPL or is it just housed in the DPL? Ken Troy, MI > Burton Historical Collection List > _______________________________________________ > > > Hello Folks, > > I just got word from Diane Haddad, Managing Editor, Family Tree Magazine, that > the Detroit Public Library has issued a new FAQ. (Ms. Haddad is doing a story > about this whole usage fee issue.) The library administration has backed down > a little with three new concessions: > > 5. What about customers who only visit the library once or twice a year to > use the special collections. Will they have to pay $100? > > DPL values the customers who make special trips to Detroit to use the special > collections. These customers can pay a daily use fee of $10 per day, to use any > of the special collections. A daily use fee does not allow borrowing privileges. > > 6. How do you define "access to the special collections?" Does this mean > that people will not be allowed to enter the special collections, even if > they only want to look around? > > At present, the Hackley Collection is by appointment only and will continue to > be that way. The Burton and NAHC collections will remain free to browsers. Any > staff assistance will require a library card or a daily use fee. > > 21. Will library volunteers pay for a library card? > No. Library volunteers receive the same library borrowing privileges as DPL > employees. > > You can view the new FAQ for yourself at > http://detroit.lib.mi.us/About_DPL/graphics/THE%20DETROIT%20PUBLIC%20LIBRARY.pdf > > Although these changes are welcomed and would be perfectly appropriate for a > PRIVATE library, the usage fee still violates our access to a public library as > guranteed by the consitution of the state of Michigan. Furthermore, the > concession allowing us to browse the reading room of the Burton does us very > little good since most of the materials are in closed stacks. > > Now I need to know from you what we should do? Should we still go ahead with the > donation boycott? Should we modify the Plan of Action? Should we postpone the > informational picket? > > I need to hear from as many of you as possible as soon as possible. Unless > otherwise advised by most of you, it is still my plan to call Ms. Skowronski > today and ask for a meeting to negotiate a better outcome for us. However, I > will wait until after lunch to call her. > > I want to thank Ms. Haddad and Family Tree Magazine for taking an interest in > our case. Also, I want to thank all of you who have made your strong > opposition to this usage fee clear by endorsing our Plan of Action. I count > this as at least a partial victory for us. However, I think we still have to > go much further. Lastly, I want to thank any library insiders who helped push > through these three changes. > > My Best Regards to All of You, > > JP > > John P. DuLong, Ph.D. > Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy > 959 Oxford Road > Berkley, MI 48072-2011 > (248) 541-2894 > http://habitant.org > > > _______________________________________________ > BHC mailing list > BHC@habitant.org > http://habitant.org/mailman/listinfo/bhc_habitant.org > From dulongj at habitant.org Wed Jul 21 07:06:00 2004 From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong) Date: Wed Jul 21 07:06:01 2004 Subject: [BHC] The Library Admininstration Just Blinked In-Reply-To: <009e01c46f29$f12088c0$4be094ce@ken> References: <1090415135.40fe6a1fde2d1@login.aries.lunarpages.com> <009e01c46f29$f12088c0$4be094ce@ken> Message-ID: <1090418760.40fe784857e75@login.aries.lunarpages.com> Quoting Ken : > Is the Burton Collection owned by the DPL or is it just housed in the DPL? It is owned by the DPL. John P. DuLong, Ph.D. Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy 959 Oxford Road Berkley, MI 48072-2011 (248) 541-2894 http://habitant.org From dulongj at habitant.org Wed Jul 21 17:33:48 2004 From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong) Date: Wed Jul 21 17:32:15 2004 Subject: [BHC] FW: KVGS motion final version Message-ID: Folks, I want to thank the Kalamazoo Valley Genealogical Society for taking a stand on this issue. Below you will find the unanimous motion they are sending to the Detroit Public Library. Please use this motion as a model. Approach your genealogical or historical society and ask them to send a similar notice to the library administration. They have to understand that it is not just John and his, dare I say it, rag-tag group of friends who oppose this usage fee, but that it is opposed by respectable societies in the state and elsewhere. Regards, JP -----Original Message----- From: Kurt Kremlick [mailto:kremlick@juno.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 3:49 PM To: dulongj@habitant.org Subject: Re:KVGS motion final version John, For the record this is the final version of the KVGS motion. Motion: That the Board of Directors of the Kalamazoo Valley Genealogical Society convey to the Detroit Public Library Commission and Administration its strongest possible objection to the decision to impose upon non-residents of Detroit a yearly fee of $100.00 to use any of its special and unique collections. We consider such a decision discriminatory and not in the best interest of the Library, the City of Detroit, or the citizens of the State of Michigan who live outside of Detroit, since it effectively prohibits non-residents from using the unique resources of the Library. We call upon the Commission and Administration of the Detroit Public Library to immediately rescind the non-resident user fee and seek other remedies to its current financial situation. We strongly urge the Commission and Administration to consult widely with various individuals and organizations who have contributed to the library and its special collections as well as those who use the special collections and are most affected by the imposition of a non-resident user fee. Letters to the Library director and president of the DPL commission went out this afternoon signed by our President who I briefed in detail about the plans and background. Will keep you posted. Not sure if I can make it 8/7 bit will do my best to be there for the Commission meeting in Sept. Should be interesting! Kurt in Kzo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/bhc_habitant.org/attachments/20040721/40631f96/attachment.htm From dulongj at habitant.org Wed Jul 21 17:54:04 2004 From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong) Date: Wed Jul 21 17:52:22 2004 Subject: [BHC] Stick to the Plan but CANCEL the Picketing for Now Message-ID: OK Folks, what I have heard from you is the following: 1. Stick to the plan of action. If the usage fee is not rescinded, then we launch the donation boycott. All of you basically told me that the recent changes in the policy are too little too late. Some of you made it very clear that you think it is important that we resist the precedent of a usage fee because it will damage genealogical and historical research in general. Others of you want to stick to the plan of action based on principle, that is, that it is unconstitutional. Some of you, especially with groups that just donated large amounts of money, are upset by being denied access to the special collections your groups support. And lastly, some of your appear to be voting no confidence in the administration of the library and their handling of funds. Bottom line, we will stick with the plan of action. 2. Keep trying to get the Attorney General's opinion on the constitutionality of usage fees. Remember, I need your help on this, ask your state senator and representative for the Attorney General to publish his opinion on usage fees (not borrowing fees). 3. And postpone the picketing for now. It appears many of you have conflicts on the 7th and would prefer that we picket at another time. I do not relish picketing in the August heat, so I am all for waiting. Besides, it has been suggested that we wait for a big library event to protest so we have more of an impact. Sorry that I rushed off and picked the date. It just seemed natural given the 1 August 2004 fee date. I will coordinate any future protest action more closely. (How was I to know that so many people get married in August, I thought June was the month for weddings?) 4. Do protest at the next Detroit Library Commission meeting in September. Remember to keep 1:30pm Tuesday 21 September 2004 marked on your calendar. This date is fixed. I called Ms. Skowronski today. She was not in. I left my name and number. Tomorrow I will try again. Regards, JP John P. DuLong, Ph.D. Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy 959 Oxford Road Berkley, MI 48072-2011 USA (248) 541-2894 dulongj@habitant.org From dulongj at habitant.org Wed Jul 21 18:03:27 2004 From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong) Date: Wed Jul 21 18:01:47 2004 Subject: [BHC] Picketing Off, Mini-Protest Still On Message-ID: Folks, I want to send out another message just to make sure you all understand that the picketing on Saturday 7 August 2004 is OFF. However, I still want a small group of us, say five to ten, to ask for service and be denied so that I can record this in detail in case legal procedures are necessary. Rather then do this on Saturday. Would the people be willing to meet me at 6:00pm Wednesday 4 August 2004? This should not take long at all. JP John P. DuLong, Ph.D. Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy 959 Oxford Road Berkley, MI 48072-2011 USA (248) 541-2894 dulongj@habitant.org From ChristieTrapp at aol.com Thu Jul 22 01:07:23 2004 From: ChristieTrapp at aol.com (ChristieTrapp@aol.com) Date: Thu Jul 22 01:07:29 2004 Subject: [BHC] The Library Admininstration Just Blinked Message-ID: <30.5bc524b3.2e30cfbb@aol.com> In a message dated 7/21/2004 6:06:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, dulongj@habitant.org writes: <<6. How do you define " "access to the special collections?? Does this mean that people will not be allowed to enter the special collections, even if they only want to look around? At present, the Hackley Collection is by appointment only and will continue to be that way. The Burton and NAHC collections will remain free to browsers. Any staff assistance will require a library card or a daily use fee.>> John's comment: Although these changes are welcomed and would be perfectly appropriate for a PRIVATE library, the usage fee still violates our access to a public library as guranteed by the consitution of the state of Michigan. Furthermore, the concession allowing us to browse the reading room of the Burton does us very little good since most of the materials are in closed stacks. Isn't the FAQ response really stupid? You can come in and walk around for free, but request help to get a book and it requires the $100 card or the $10 daily fee. You spend 10 days there and you have bought the card! And John has hit the nail on the head - closed stacks is the catch 22 problem. If you can't see them, you might as well weep! Let's get going with a boycott and any other action required to get these guys to blink more than once! I'm in California, but I certainly would like to be in Detroit for the picketting. I'm hoping that a lot more than just 15-20 people show up on the August date called for! We need to show our force. Some of you more elequent people might also start posting this problem on ROOTS-L, if not all the lists to let people know about this fee issue. I've talked to some people here in California and they have no clue that it is even proposed or going to be implemented! So we need to get the word passed to more people than are on this list. Maybe John, as the head guy in our fight, it might be something you can do. Maybe you can cut and paste some of our messages on this list into one long stream and see what type of results you get. Christie Trapp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/bhc_habitant.org/attachments/20040722/559975dd/attachment.htm From mkp at plymouthlibrary.org Thu Jul 22 06:58:30 2004 From: mkp at plymouthlibrary.org (Kathy Petlewski) Date: Thu Jul 22 06:58:40 2004 Subject: [BHC] The Library Admininstration Just Blinked In-Reply-To: <30.5bc524b3.2e30cfbb@aol.com> References: <30.5bc524b3.2e30cfbb@aol.com> Message-ID: <3725.24.208.242.181.1090504710.squirrel@pegasus.plymouthlibrary.org> Christie - As a librarian (and genealogist) working in metro Detroit, I immediately posted this news to the Genealib listserv for librarians serving genealogists. I was amazed at the immediate response I received from folks all over the country who thanked me for alerting them to this problem. If we all post to our genealogy-related lists, then word will spread in no time! Kathy Petlewski Electronic Resources Librarian Plymouth District Library 223 S. Main St. Plymouth, MI 48170 (734) 453-0750 ex. 208 > Burton Historical Collection List > _______________________________________________ > > > In a message dated 7/21/2004 6:06:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, > dulongj@habitant.org writes: > <<6. How do you define " "access to the special collections???? Does this > mean > that people will not be allowed to enter the special collections, even if > they only want to look around? > > At present, the Hackley Collection is by appointment only and will > continue to > be that way. The Burton and NAHC collections will remain free to browsers. > Any > staff assistance will require a library card or a daily use fee.>> > > John's comment: > > Although these changes are welcomed and would be perfectly appropriate for > a > PRIVATE library, the usage fee still violates our access to a public > library > as > guranteed by the consitution of the state of Michigan. Furthermore, the > concession allowing us to browse the reading room of the Burton does us > very > little good since most of the materials are in closed stacks. > Isn't the FAQ response really stupid? You can come in and walk around for > free, but request help to get a book and it requires the $100 card or the > $10 > daily fee. You spend 10 days there and you have bought the card! And > John has > hit the nail on the head - closed stacks is the catch 22 problem. If you > can't see them, you might as well weep! > > Let's get going with a boycott and any other action required to get these > guys to blink more than once! > > I'm in California, but I certainly would like to be in Detroit for the > picketting. I'm hoping that a lot more than just 15-20 people show up on > the August > date called for! We need to show our force. > > Some of you more elequent people might also start posting this problem on > ROOTS-L, if not all the lists to let people know about this fee issue. > I've > talked to some people here in California and they have no clue that it is > even > proposed or going to be implemented! So we need to get the word passed to > more > people than are on this list. Maybe John, as the head guy in our fight, > it > might be something you can do. Maybe you can cut and paste some of our > messages > on this list into one long stream and see what type of results you get. > > Christie Trapp > _______________________________________________ > BHC mailing list > BHC@habitant.org > http://habitant.org/mailman/listinfo/bhc_habitant.org > -- Kathy Petlewski Electronic Resources Librarian Plymouth District Library 223 S. Main St. Plymouth, MI 48170 (734) 453-0750 ex. 208 From ehr09 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 11:40:57 2004 From: ehr09 at yahoo.com (M Ehr) Date: Thu Jul 22 11:40:56 2004 Subject: [BHC] Maybe it's just me... Message-ID: <20040722184057.35545.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com> ...but the latest version of the FAQ has made me rethink my position on the usage fee. I had been assuming that at some point, I will be forced to pay the fee if I intend to continue researching my family. But the FAQ makes it even more clear that the DPL's fee policies are petty and punitive, and in no way, shape, or form actually tied to the expenses the DPL incurs serving us "outlanders." I have come to the conclusion that I will not allow the DPL to bully me into paying a fee as a punishment for not being a Detroit resident. The lack of assurance that Special Collection fees will actually be used to *support the collections* belies the DPL's assertion that non-resident use of the Burton is driving up costs and making the fee necessary. I simply refuse to pay such an onerous fee for a service when there is no indication that the funds will actually be used to maintain and improve that service. Although the DPL has now included a daily-use provision in the policy, I think that $10 for a single day's access is far too high. Are they assuming that they can persuade more researchers to pay the full fee? I can see paying $10 - or even a bit more - for a month of access, maybe, but not one single day. Still and all, I resent the idea that I'd have to pay *any* fee for simple access to any on-site materials in a *public* library. Rather than validate this dangerous precedent by actually ponying up the fee, I'd rather spend those funds traveling to and from Lansing, ordering LDS films, and on other means of gathering the same information. Yes, it may seem silly to go through so much hassle just to end up spending the same amount of money, if not more, but here is where I will most assuredly stand on principle. Looks like I have one more week to do some power-researching. Meg Ehr Royal Oak, MI __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From ehr09 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 11:44:38 2004 From: ehr09 at yahoo.com (M Ehr) Date: Thu Jul 22 11:44:35 2004 Subject: [BHC] Archdiocesan records Message-ID: <20040722184438.96585.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com> Has anyone heard from the Archdiocese regarding the DPL fee? I'm very interested in learning their position on the fee, as those are the most important records for my research that I'll lose access to when I don't pay the $100. I'd hope that they'd be willing to refuse the DPL permission to charge for access to those records, if not pull the entire collection and move it to a repository that will allow free access. Meg Ehr Royal Oak __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ From ChristieTrapp at aol.com Thu Jul 22 17:02:53 2004 From: ChristieTrapp at aol.com (ChristieTrapp@aol.com) Date: Thu Jul 22 17:03:08 2004 Subject: [BHC] Maybe it's just me... OR ME TOO! Message-ID: <1cf.2690bfff.2e31afad@aol.com> In a message dated 7/22/2004 11:41:36 AM Pacific Standard Time, ehr09@yahoo.com writes: it even more clear that the DPL's fee policies are petty and punitive, and in no way, shape, or form actually tied to the expenses the DPL incurs serving us outlanders." I agree. How is it any different serving the local Detroit populuous than all of us outlanders as we are called who are non-Detroiters! I can't seem to equate the difference. How is one more expensive than the other? Doesn't it take the same amount of legwork, manpower, etc. to deal with a "local" as it does to someone who lives outside the city limits? I think so. This rationale that it costs more to detail with an outlander doesn't fly. I also agree that the $10 daily fee is excessive. It is even more than the NEHGS charges non-members who want to check out the sources in Boston! It is more than the California Genealogical Society (CGS) charges non-members to use the library. Neither of these allow checkout privileges to non-members, let alone to members of CGS. Both of these facilities just mentioned are private libraries and the fee is certainly more reasonable than $10. If one visits the Burton 10 times in a year, they've paid for an annual $100 pass. If the fee was say $2 a day, people would have a tendancy to come more often and perhaps, over time, spent the $100 they want now up front, but it doesn't hit the pocketbook so hard and doesn't seem to be so ugly and would certainly, I believe, be much more acceptable to the average person who shows up on the doorsteps of the Burton. In that way, I could visit for 5 days at $2 which ends up being $10 in a week. It also wouldn't smack the non-Detroiters in the face so hard. However, if they are going to charge to use the Burton to non-Detroiters, then they should charge the same fee to everyone! Detroiters as well since they are using the excuse it costs money to help people to use the Burton. Equal treatment for all. No ifs, ands, or butts about it, this is inequality and unconstitutional. If they want to charge to get into the Burton, then the fee needs to be paid at the door to the room where the collection is housed and by everybody. At this point, how are they proposing to collect the fee? When someone asks for a book that is housed in the collection at the reference desk, this is going to create an unbelieveable delay for those waiting in line behind that person. Particularly if there are many people asking to use the Burton and each needs individual help and attention. I can visualize it taking at a minimum 10 minutes per person or more depending on whether the person needs to have a long explanation about why the fee is being imposed to actually getting out their purse, wallet or credit card to pay the fee. How is that really cost effective? I view this as both a time waster, manpower waster, and not very cost effective. It is probably going to cost the library more money in time and energy to manage this fee program than it is just to deal with the questions people ask and move on to the next person. I guess we need to find someone quickly (a friend, relative) who lives in Detroit and use their library card to gain access. But I don't know anyone in Detroit except some dead ancestors who once lived there. Does that count? Maybe some of my deceased Detroit family or my living Lake Orion relatives who have no idea I exist, who happen to have some part of the family buried or still living in Detroit will offer me their card to use the library in order to avoid the access fees. But since they have no idea I exist, I can't hardly show up on their tombstone or their doorstep to ask them for their library card for a day or two! Just a tongue in cheek comment here, but if the fee is imposed, I'm going to find some relative who has library privileges to get into the Burton. I'm not spending $100 to get into a library! I also agree with a lot of the folks on the list that this fee may be considered unconstitutional. Perhaps on a federal constitutional argument - taxation without representation? Until the Attorney General rules, we'll never know and even if he rules that it is "legal", then I think the lawsuit might be the way to go to get a higher authority than some attorney who works for the government agencies (DPL) that may have an in with the AG??? Is the Attorney General an elected or an appointed position in Michigan? If elected, his job will be on the line at the next election. If appointed, then a new Governor needs to be elected at the next election who will appoint a different AG if he rules unfavorably against us. I think we will need more than just a one-day check for refusal to get books unless the fee is paid. We need to have it checked at random times on a periodic basis with no warning we are coming. In that way we can check to see if they consistently say the fee must be paid to everyone all the time and not just on the day we pick and post a notice on this list that we are going to hit them up for requests. Will they be checking everyone to see if they have a Detroit address or library card before going into the collection by checking ID - Driver's license or library card? This may still mean we need to file a lawsuit. Obviously, though, a lawsuit is not cheap. Do we have an attorney who will take the case pro bono? Christie Trapp Fairfield, CA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/bhc_habitant.org/attachments/20040722/75f2cc0a/attachment.htm From ehr09 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 21:59:50 2004 From: ehr09 at yahoo.com (M Ehr) Date: Fri Jul 23 21:59:49 2004 Subject: [BHC] Family Tree Magazine newsletter article #2 Message-ID: <20040724045950.65009.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com> For those who don't subscribe, Family Tree Magazine's newsletter has been following the user fee issue (first mention at http://tinyurl.com/2dgh7). The latest issue, available at http://tinyurl.com/5p2rl, quotes our own John DuLong more than once, and mentions the protest plan. I note that the editors have been careful not to take sides on the issue, but just report the facts. I respect their decision to do so, and am grateful that they are at least making more genealogists aware of this dangerous precedent. Oh, and the unnamed "Family Tree Magazine E-mail Update reader from Michigan" quoted in the piece? That'd be little old me... Meg Ehr Royal Oak, MI _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From dulongj at habitant.org Thu Jul 29 19:02:47 2004 From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong) Date: Thu Jul 29 19:00:55 2004 Subject: [BHC] Set Back for Our Cause Message-ID: Folks, Yesterday in the Detroit City Council, Maryann Mahaffey proposed a resolution asking the Detroit Public Library to rescind the usage fee. Unfortunately, the City Council did not pass the resolution. I want to thank Mrs. Mahaffey for standing up for the best interests of the library. The officials from the library kept emphasizing that other libraries charge fees and the City Councilors failed to understand the difference between reasonable fees, like for borrowing, which other libraries do charge, and a usage fee. They felt that the taxpayers of Detroit should not have to pay for non-Detroiters to use the library. They did not understand the role non-Detroiters have played in supporting the Detroit Public Library over the years. Also, I learned that the state house still has a line item of $500,000 for the Detroit Public Library in its proposed 2004-2005 fiscal year budget. However, this line item is not in the Senate budget. The appropriations are in conference committee right now. Should we write to Lansing and ask our senators to support the $500,000 line item for the library? Regards, John P. DuLong, Ph.D. Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy 959 Oxford Road Berkley, MI 48072-2011 (248) 541-2894 http://habitant.org From ChristieTrapp at aol.com Thu Jul 29 21:08:32 2004 From: ChristieTrapp at aol.com (ChristieTrapp@aol.com) Date: Thu Jul 29 21:08:34 2004 Subject: [BHC] Set Back for Our Cause Message-ID: <1e4.2652fdca.2e3b23c0@aol.com> Of course write to all the senators and representatives. They all need to hear from the people from Michigan about these fees in order to access the damages their taking out, even the $500,000, from the budget. At the same time, perhaps a push to up the ante on the amount might be worth a try as well. Is there a way of getting some kind of colilition who are powerful folks within the state to support our cause to get a push for an increase in the budget? How about having them mention this userous user fee the DPL is proposing and fighting for? Has anyone heard from the AG regarding a ruling? Time is running out before it goes into effect over the weekend. Keep up the good work at that end. Sorry I can't be there to be with all you people. This is an unfair fee and I think the DPL will feel a drop in the number of patrons coming to the library to use it because they refuse to pay the fee. I suppose a few will pay it because they got all the way there and it would be a wasted trip if they didn't use the library, but I certainly won't be going to Detroit any time soon. I'll head to Allen County instead! Keep the spirit up folks. Christie Trapp Fairfield, CA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/bhc_habitant.org/attachments/20040730/19828f8d/attachment.htm From JDuncan802 at aol.com Fri Jul 30 06:28:20 2004 From: JDuncan802 at aol.com (JDuncan802@aol.com) Date: Fri Jul 30 06:28:18 2004 Subject: [BHC] Legislature and Burton fee Message-ID: <1d6.277c0a24.2e3ba6f4@aol.com> I spent the day at the Burton Collection yesterday. Two weeks ago a non-resident could still purchase a library card for $40 - and not be told that it was good for only two weeks. It happened! No one could get a library card yesterday. One man wanted to use the computer in Burton and was told he needed a card - but the desk in the hall was not issuing cards. Staff have not been told yet how to implement the fees for phone calls, emails and faxes - and the change will take effect next week. They have not seen the new card. Over the years, Burton staff have been required to enter a check mark on paper for every question asked of a librarian. Totaling these check marks probably equates, in the minds of the administrators, the response by them that "in most cases librarians in DPL's special collections provide in-depth research assistance to the customers who utilize their collections. With the loss of state funding, it is not possible to continue to provide the same level of statewide services to these users without a fee of some sort." Many of the questions asked require nothing but a rote answer: "What are your hours? Where is the nearest bathroom? Where do you keep the Detroit death record microfiche? Where are the printed indexes to the Federal census?" It DOES NOT require more manpower to send down a call slip for two non-residents with a call slip for a Detroit resident. One hand can handle three call slips! Charging a USER fee to non-residents for using the Burton Historical Collection sets a dangerous precedent for use of public libraries throughout the United States. We should contact our legislators and encourage them to include the $500,000 budget item for the Detroit Public Library CONTINGENT upon the DPL removing the non-resident user fee for special collections. Certainly $500,000 is much more than DPL could reasonably expect to receive in one year from users of the three special collections. Possibly DPL's public relations department (they do have one) could inform the legislators that they would drop the access fee if the appropriation for DPL stayed in the budget? Mary Lou Duncan From dulongj at habitant.org Fri Jul 30 14:51:17 2004 From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong) Date: Fri Jul 30 14:49:21 2004 Subject: [BHC] Urgent Letter Writing Campaign for the $500,000 Message-ID: Folks, I have to agree 100 percent with Mary Lou Duncan's idea. Let us write to Lansing and ask that the $500,000 for the Detroit Public Library be included in the 2003-2004 fiscal year budget on the condition that the usage fee be rescinded. In addition, I would add two more conditions, that the funds should be clearly spent on the special collections and that the library report to the public how the funds were spent. Your letters to your state senators and representatives can mention some of the following points: * That the special collections of the Detroit Public Library are unique in the state and resources used by any citizens of Michigan interested in the history of the Great Lakes Region or by genealogists with ancestors in the area. * That the special collections include the Burton Historical Collection, the National Automotive Historical Collection, and the E. Azalia Hackley Collection. * The special collections are heavily used by non-Detroiters including many visitors to Michigan. * That the special collections deserver the financial support of the state. * Acknowledge that you know about the alleged financial mishandling of grants and gifts at the library, but that you do not want to see access to the special collections damaged because of this scandal. You want funding with accountability. * Due to the loss of state funding, the Detroit Library Commission is imposing a $100 a year fee on non-Detroiters to simply use the special collections. We oppose this fee. Make sure you distinguish between the usage fee and the borrowing fee, which is acceptable. * Explain that the $500,000 has been included in the House's version of the 2004-2005 fiscal year budget, but not yet in the Senate's version, and that it is now in the conference committee. * Ask that the amount be increased to more than $500,000. * In order to assure funding with accountability, ask that the funds be tied to three conditions: (1) the usage fee has to be rescinded, (2) that the library only spend the funds on the special collections, and (3) that the library issue an annual report on their web site to the public summarizing how the funds were spent to benefit the special collections. * Point out that without any state funding going to the Detroit Public Library, that this situation removes any leverage non-Detroiters have over the fate of the special collections with the Detroit Library Commission. * Plead with your legislators to vote for at least the $500,000 with the two suggested conditions. I will frame my letters and share them with you by Sunday. But I think I have given you enough points that you can write your own letters. If you do not know who your state legislators are, then please point your browser to http://www.senate.michigan.gov/SenatorInfo/find-your-senator.htm for your senator and http://house.michigan.gov/find_a_rep.asp for your representative. Please send me copies of your letters and emails so I can get an idea of your thoughts and how many of you are writing. You can email them to dulongj@habitant.org Please spread the word. Send this email off to your friends and family. Ask them to help. Share it with your local history or genealogical societies. We need everyone to write, Detroiters and non-Detroiters. Those of you living outside of Michigan, please email Governor Granholm and ask her to support state funding for the Detroit Public Library with the conditions we laid out. Explain the importance of your historical and genealogical tourism dollars to the state in your message. The governor can be contacted at: Governor Jennifer M. Granholm P. O. Box 30013 Lansing, Michigan 48909 PHONE (517) 373-3400 FAX (517) 335-6863 Apparently, she does not have email! This is going to be an urgent letter writing campaign. Let's get going on it now! Quantity is more important than quality when writing to the state legislators. So I need EVERYONE to write!!! I know you genealogists out there are exceptionally good letter writers, so get to it. And you historians, librarians, and archivists should not let the genealogists out do you. I am going to pester you folks until I start seeing some letters and emails. Let us show the library administration that we can lobby for the library but that we are not going to do so on their terms! We want funding with accountability! Regards, JP John P. DuLong, Ph.D. Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy 959 Oxford Road Berkley, MI 48072-2011 (248) 541-2894 http://habitant.org From dulongj at habitant.org Fri Jul 30 14:58:01 2004 From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong) Date: Fri Jul 30 14:56:02 2004 Subject: [BHC] Hopeful Development Message-ID: Folks, I just learned that the National Automotive Historical Collection Board of Trustees have secured the assistance of four prominent attorneys on behalf of the three Special Collections involved in the usage fee issue. As I learn more about this development I will update you, but keep in mind it can take weeks for any thing to happen. Regards, JP John P. DuLong, Ph.D. Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy 959 Oxford Road Berkley, MI 48072-2011 USA (248) 541-2894 dulongj@habitant.org From dulongj at habitant.org Fri Jul 30 17:56:23 2004 From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong) Date: Fri Jul 30 17:54:24 2004 Subject: [BHC] Emailing Gov. Granholm Message-ID: Folks, If you want to send an email to Gov. Granholm, then visit the following web site and follow the email link, a form will come up that you can fill out. Click here: Congress.Org -- Write To Congress, the President and State Legislators Thanks PI for the tip. JP -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/bhc_habitant.org/attachments/20040730/f0c03b3e/attachment.htm