From dulongj at habitant.org Mon Feb 27 18:11:13 2006
From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong)
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 21:11:13 -0500
Subject: [BHC] Failure of the Non-Detroiter Fee
Message-ID: <002101c63c0c$41471750$6401a8c0@family.local>
Hello Folks,
As it has been some time since I last checked on the Burton Historical
Collection, I thought it might prove worthwhile to submit another Freedom of
Information Act request. This time I asked the Detroit Public Library
administration for data regarding the impact of the fee the Detroit Library
Commission imposed on non-Detroiters starting in August 2004.
The results for the Burton Historical Collection are rather stunning. All
measures of usage decrease soon after August 2004 and have remained low.
Here are the totals for 2003, 2004, and 2005:
2003
Totals
References 48718
Visitors 9811
2004
Totals
References 33116
Visitors 8384
2005
Totals
References 20703
Visitors 5821
(The monthly breakdowns can be found at the end of this email.)
You can see how soon after August 2004, when the non-Detroiter fee was
imposed, the number of references and visitors drops precipitously and keeps
going down. These low numbers reflect the reports I have received form many
of you who have used the Burton Historical Collection that there are just a
handful of users in the reading and microfilm rooms at any given time.
How much money has the library collected from imposing this fee? Does it
come close to the millions of state funding they lost due to alleged
corruption and incompetence? Is it enough to compensate for the bad
publicity and ill-will this policy has created? Well folks, they made a
whopping $16,400 over 17 months from August 2004 to December 2005. They
collected $5,900 in annual fees and $10,500 in day passes.
This policy has been a complete failure. In a period of American culture
when genealogy has become one of the most popular pastimes, the Burton
Historical Collection should be able to hold on to its patrons if not
attract more. Instead, many patrons have apparently moved on. With the
online resources available through the Internet and wonderful libraries in
Lansing and Fort Wayne, it makes little sense for many of us to continue
using the Burton Historical Collection if we have to pay a fee.
Before this fee was imposed, we proposed that a voluntary donation program
be initiated and that genealogical and historical societies be encouraged to
participate. The Friends of the Burton Historical Collection, affiliated
with the Friends of the Detroit Public Library, could have helped coordinate
this plan. We also requested that the library administration make a
commitment that any funds raised would be spent on the Burton Historical
Collection. A voluntary donation program would have undoubtedly led to more
than $16,400 in donations primarily because it would be a tax deduction,
while the non-resident fee is not tax deductible. However, the library
administration failed to heed our suggestions. Now I fear it is too late to
try and resurrect such a program. What do you think?
Regards,
JP
John P. DuLong, Ph.D.
959 Oxford Road
Berkley, MI 48072-2011
(248) 541-2894
http://habitant.org
Here is the complete monthly data for References and Visitors:
2003
Jan Feb Mar Apr May June July Aug
Sept Oct Nov Dec Totals
References 4233 4419 5009 4162 5818 4502 6206
3212 3162 3470 2896 1929 48718
Visitors 761 800 985 827 862 775
978 733 755 949 763 603 9811
2004
Jan Feb Mar Apr May June July Aug
Sept Oct Nov Dec Totals
References 2555 3368 4493 3920 2568 2665 4464
2180 2102 1482 1734 1585 33116
Visitors 638 853 971 767 657 730
1066 581 544 580 527 470 8384
2005
Jan Feb Mar Apr May June July Aug
Sept Oct Nov Dec Totals
References 1969 2183 2202 1968 1755 1972 1797
1361 1316 1528 1452 1200 20703
Visitors 368 517 566 587 465 528
565 509 483 510 424 299 5821
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From Avtrudeau at aol.com Tue Feb 28 04:39:24 2006
From: Avtrudeau at aol.com (Avtrudeau@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 07:39:24 EST
Subject: [BHC] Failure of the Non-Detroiter Fee
Message-ID: <2d1.42313cd.31359e7c@aol.com>
And the good news is . . .
In a message dated 2/27/06 9:12:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
dulongj at habitant.org writes:
This policy has been a complete failure.
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From ear13990 at wideopenwest.com Tue Feb 28 04:51:35 2006
From: ear13990 at wideopenwest.com (EAR)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 07:51:35 -0500
Subject: [BHC] Burton collection
Message-ID: <44044757.90906@wideopenwest.com>
First the the Burton, now the Zoo. I think it's time to forget about
any regional cooperation. Write it off as a bad investment, and, if
you're able move out of the area.
From aa0912 at wayne.edu Tue Feb 28 08:25:09 2006
From: aa0912 at wayne.edu (Charles K. Hyde)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 11:25:09 -0500
Subject: [BHC] Fwd: Re:
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060228112359.01fecdf8@mail.wayne.edu>
>John:
>
>Thanks you for your continuing, tireless efforts on behalf of the
>Burton Historical Collection.
>
>Certainly, the imposition of user's fees on some, but not all,
>non-Detroiters, was a costly blunder by the Library Commission.
>
>Think about it. This policy raised a measly $10,000 per year and
>cost the Burton half of its patronage. But this is only part of
>the story. Donations of money and books to the DPL by Burton
>patrons have also fallen off sharply. Various genealogy groups no
>longer meet at the DPL, which is becoming increasingly irrelevant
>to its core patrons. The policy is not merely wrong, it is DUMB !
>
>The time has come for the Library Commission to admit that this was
>a mistaken policy, rescind it, and try to repair the damage. I
>am not going to hold my breath waiting for this to happen. There is
>no evidence that the Commission knows what is going on at the
>Detroit Public Library, much less cares about the DPL.
>
>Sadly, this policy decision was a crude political appeal to
>Detroit voters to encourage approval of the last library
>mileage. It is part of this "us-versus-them" mentality that
>permeates many Detroit institutions. It is part of what makes the
>city so dysfunctional. The Superbowl has shown what can happen
>when there is cooperation between Detroit and its neighbors. The
>Library Commission needs to open its eyes.
>
>Dr. Charles K. Hyde
>
From mwigle at virtual-impact.ca Tue Feb 28 10:00:22 2006
From: mwigle at virtual-impact.ca (Marc Wigle)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 13:00:22 -0500
Subject: [BHC] Burton collection
References: <44044757.90906@wideopenwest.com>
Message-ID: <00c801c63c90$d93eda50$8001bfce@yourus67pi6luv>
What's happening with the zoo? I assume that you mean the Detroit zoo?
Marc
----- Original Message -----
From: "EAR"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 7:51 AM
Subject: [BHC] Burton collection
> Burton Historical Collection List
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> First the the Burton, now the Zoo. I think it's time to forget about
> any regional cooperation. Write it off as a bad investment, and, if
> you're able move out of the area.
>
> _______________________________________________
> BHC mailing list
> BHC at habitant.org
> http://habitant.org/mailman/listinfo/bhc_habitant.org
>
From ear13990 at wideopenwest.com Tue Feb 28 15:11:11 2006
From: ear13990 at wideopenwest.com (EAR)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:11:11 -0500
Subject: [BHC] Burton collection
In-Reply-To: <00c801c63c90$d93eda50$8001bfce@yourus67pi6luv>
References: <44044757.90906@wideopenwest.com>
<00c801c63c90$d93eda50$8001bfce@yourus67pi6luv>
Message-ID: <4404D88F.5020105@wideopenwest.com>
The Detroit city council is afraid the suburbs are trying to "steal"
Detroit's jewels, so to prevent that they're willing to close the zoo
and disperse the animals to other zoos and rescue organization around
the country. The sad part is, these are the same people that control
the regional water and sewer resources. So, I can live without the
Burton Collection, the zoo, the library or any of other amenities that
make up for the disadvantages of residing in a congested city, but I
can't live without water. When I'm able, I'll vote with my feet.
Marc Wigle wrote:
> Burton Historical Collection List
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> What's happening with the zoo? I assume that you mean the Detroit zoo?
>
> Marc
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "EAR"
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 7:51 AM
> Subject: [BHC] Burton collection
>
>
>
>> Burton Historical Collection List
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> First the the Burton, now the Zoo. I think it's time to forget about
>> any regional cooperation. Write it off as a bad investment, and, if
>> you're able move out of the area.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BHC mailing list
>> BHC at habitant.org
>> http://habitant.org/mailman/listinfo/bhc_habitant.org
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BHC mailing list
> BHC at habitant.org
> http://habitant.org/mailman/listinfo/bhc_habitant.org
>
>
>
From dulongj at habitant.org Tue Feb 28 15:34:20 2006
From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:34:20 -0500
Subject: [BHC] Respond to the List Please
Message-ID: <003c01c63cbf$80f55660$6401a8c0@family.local>
Hello Folks,
I am getting several responses regarding my last posting which I believe
were meant for the entire list. I enjoy hearing from you folks, but please
respond to bhc at habitant.org so that the message will go out to the entire
group. I can not tell if the messages are meant for me alone or the whole
group.
Also, I want to remind people that the Detroit Public Library, because it
lost its state funding, is now supported almost entirely through taxes paid
by Detroit residents. I think most of you are aware of this, but some
newcomers might not realize it. The state funding was loss in part because
of hard times for the state but also because of alleged corruption at the
Detroit Public Library as documented by the report of the Detroit Auditor
General.
Let me be very clear that most of us would not mind paying $10 a visit or
even $100 a year if we knew the money was going to be spent on the Burton
Historical Collection. Non-residents have been very generous to the Detroit
Public Library over the years; most of the membership of the Friends of the
Detroit Public Library has been non-residents. So please do not try and lay
a guilt trip on non-Detroiters because we do not currently pay taxes to
support the library. For decades our state taxes did go to the library and
most of us would endorse a plan to reinstate this funding as long as we had
guarantees that the funding would be used for the special collections and
not other projects.
I want to also emphasize that we oppose the non-resident fee because it is a
usage fee, not because it is a service fee. Many public libraries charge
non-residents a fee to borrow books. However, to my knowledge, no public
library in the United States with a genealogical collection charges
non-residents to consult that collection except the Detroit Public Library.
Several of you have shared with me that you have found living without the
Burton Historical Collection relatively easy because of online alternatives
and resources now available at other libraries. I am glad to hear that you
are all doing well in your research, but I still feel very sad for what we
have lost. The Burton Historical Collection was a common ground and a great
place to meet and conduct our research in a collegial spirit. I fear some
of that is gone except for the diehards who still use the collection because
they are researching Detroiters or tapping into the wealth of manuscript
materials that are only available at the Burton Historical Collection.
Regards,
JP
John P. DuLong, Ph.D.
959 Oxford Road
Berkley, MI 48072-2011
(248) 541-2894
http://habitant.org
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From Brydekirk at aol.com Tue Feb 28 16:40:19 2006
From: Brydekirk at aol.com (Brydekirk@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 19:40:19 EST
Subject: [BHC] (no subject)
Message-ID: <199.50e5978c.31364773@aol.com>
I would like to see the Burton Collection go to the State Lib. before it is
ruined or totally gone.
I think old Mr. Burton would turn over in his grave. The management goes
along with all the
other corruption and ego's in the City of Det. What a shame
B
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From Jaybeeboc at aol.com Tue Feb 28 17:40:28 2006
From: Jaybeeboc at aol.com (Jaybeeboc@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 20:40:28 EST
Subject: [BHC] Burton
Message-ID: <1fa.1ae5a048.3136558c@aol.com>
Thanks John, for making the "problems" a bit clearer for those not involved
at an earlier date. I have not been able to use the Burton due to health and
find the 30 minute meters in the circle ridiculous. If I drive there I plan to
spend the day and not feed meters every 30 minutes to use a handicap parking
place. I wrote a letter to the city a few years ago to no avail.
Joyce Bockemuehl
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From dulongj at habitant.org Tue Feb 28 18:05:03 2006
From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 21:05:03 -0500
Subject: [BHC] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <199.50e5978c.31364773@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006d01c63cd4$8f311650$6401a8c0@family.local>
I often wonder if Mr. Burton, were he with us today, would regret that he
did not send his collection to the University of Michigan. He was a proud
graduate of that OK institution (not as good as MSU of course).
JP
John P. DuLong, Ph.D.
959 Oxford Road
Berkley, MI 48072-2011
(248) 541-2894
http://habitant.org
_____
From: Brydekirk at aol.com [mailto:Brydekirk at aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 7:40 PM
To: bhc at habitant.org
Subject: [BHC] (no subject)
I would like to see the Burton Collection go to the State Lib. before it is
ruined or totally gone.
I think old Mr. Burton would turn over in his grave. The management goes
along with all the
other corruption and ego's in the City of Det. What a shame
B
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From mwigle at virtual-impact.ca Tue Feb 28 18:10:36 2006
From: mwigle at virtual-impact.ca (Marc Wigle)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 21:10:36 -0500
Subject: [BHC] (no subject)
References: <006d01c63cd4$8f311650$6401a8c0@family.local>
Message-ID: <046501c63cd5$56013c60$8001bfce@yourus67pi6luv>
From: John P. DuLong
To: Brydekirk at aol.com ; bhc at habitant.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: [BHC] (no subject)
Burton Historical Collection List
_______________________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I often wonder if Mr. Burton, were he with us today, would regret that he did not send his collection to the University of Michigan. He was a proud graduate of that OK institution (not as good as MSU of course).
MSU?? Never heard of it. Does Michigan have more than one university? ;-)
I wonder if his heirs could do anything at this point? Probably not.
Marc
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From GFSBrenda at aol.com Tue Feb 28 18:23:21 2006
From: GFSBrenda at aol.com (GFSBrenda@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 21:23:21 EST
Subject: [BHC] Burton Library funding
Message-ID: <1aa.47800e76.31365f99@aol.com>
John P. DuLong wrote:
Also, I want to remind people that the Detroit Public Library, because it
lost its state funding, is now supported almost entirely through taxes paid by
Detroit residents. I think most of you are aware of this, but some newcomers
might not realize it. The state funding was loss in part because of hard times
for the state but also because of alleged corruption at the Detroit Public
Library as documented by the report of the Detroit Auditor General.
-----
I'm not entirely sure about this but a part of Detroit's funding comes from
the City Income Taxes that are also paid by non-residents that work in the
city... Do they keep that funding separate or does it all go in the same pot that
they use to fund the library, the zoo and other Detroit treasures? It seems to
me that some non-residents ARE paying a share of the cost for these things.
As to the corruption, that can hardly be considered OUR fault. We didn't
appoint the library board... we don't get to appoint or elect any Detroit officials,
but we are subject to their whims when they decide to make these unworkable
policy changes.
I lived in Detroit and I went to Burton fairly regularly and even after I
moved to the suburbs I attended classes at Wayne State and went to Burton even
MORE regularly, but I now live in northern Macomb County and the commute is not
an easy one. I haven't been to Burton since they imposed the user fees. Do I
feel the loss? YES, but I also have memberships to Ancestry.com and the NEHGS
in Boston, where I can borrow books on inter-library loan and use them at my
convenience at home. But then, my grandparents came to Michigan from other
places, so I don't have a lot of ancestral ties to Detroit, except through my
husband's family and I haven't found much on them in the Burton Collection. For
somebody with a lot of Detroit ancestry, the loss would be much more profound. I
don't specifically avoid Burton because of the user fee. For me, the distance
is more of an issue now, BUT the user fee is an added expense on top of the
commute and parking problems now that I am not nearby on a regular basis
anymore. However, it has discouraged me from making the effort to get there AND it
has also caused me to change my own will so that my own substantial personal
collection will NOT be going to Burton when I'm gone (many years from now).
Brenda Bova
President, Golden Gate Services, Inc.
Webmaster, GenealogyForum.com
(http://www.genealogyforum.com)
Co. Coordinator, Providence Co., RIGenWeb and Bristol Co., RIGenWeb
Listowner - RIProvid-L, RIBristo-L, FISKE-L, DANFORTH-L
See my ancestors at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~bova/index.html
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From dulongj at habitant.org Tue Feb 28 18:32:31 2006
From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 21:32:31 -0500
Subject: [BHC] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <046501c63cd5$56013c60$8001bfce@yourus67pi6luv>
Message-ID: <008a01c63cd8$654ee6b0$6401a8c0@family.local>
I wonder if his heirs could do anything at this point? Probably not.
As this struggle with the fate of the Burton Historical Collection has been
going on for years and has been in the public forum, I would think that if
any Burton heirs cared about the collection they would have stepped forward
by now.
JP
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From mwigle at virtual-impact.ca Tue Feb 28 18:34:45 2006
From: mwigle at virtual-impact.ca (Marc Wigle)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 21:34:45 -0500
Subject: [BHC] (no subject)
References: <008a01c63cd8$654ee6b0$6401a8c0@family.local>
Message-ID: <04fe01c63cd8$b53f60f0$8001bfce@yourus67pi6luv>
I'm sure you're right but has anyone spoken to them?... if they could be found that is.
Marc
----- Original Message -----
From: John P. DuLong
To: 'Marc Wigle' ; bhc at habitant.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 9:32 PM
Subject: RE: [BHC] (no subject)
I wonder if his heirs could do anything at this point? Probably not.
As this struggle with the fate of the Burton Historical Collection has been going on for years and has been in the public forum, I would think that if any Burton heirs cared about the collection they would have stepped forward by now.
JP
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From dulongj at habitant.org Tue Feb 28 18:39:51 2006
From: dulongj at habitant.org (John P. DuLong)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 21:39:51 -0500
Subject: [BHC] Burton Library funding
In-Reply-To: <1aa.47800e76.31365f99@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00a901c63cd9$6c069ba0$6401a8c0@family.local>
Another point of clarification, the Detroit Public Library does not receive
any funds from income tax on Detroiters or non-resident employees who work
in Detroit. My understanding is, please correct me if I am wrong, that the
vast majority of the library's funds now come from property taxes Detroiter
pay. In fact, I seem to recall that the fee is waived if you own property
in Detroit, but you live in the suburbs.
JP
John P. DuLong, Ph.D.
959 Oxford Road
Berkley, MI 48072-2011
(248) 541-2894
http://habitant.org
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From Avtrudeau at aol.com Tue Feb 28 20:28:27 2006
From: Avtrudeau at aol.com (Avtrudeau@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 23:28:27 EST
Subject: [BHC] (no subject)
Message-ID: <144.57270d90.31367ceb@aol.com>
In a message dated 2/28/06 9:06:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
dulongj at habitant.org writes:
I often wonder if Mr. Burton, were he with us today, would regret that he
did not send his collection to the University of Michigan. He was a proud
graduate of that OK institution (not as good as MSU of course).
GO
BLUE!
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